Improving the Neutral: Shimbori Talks System Changes

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Tokyo Game Show 2018 (TGS) took place between the dates of September 20th to September 23rd in the Chiba prefecture outside Tokyo, Japan. It was my first time attending the event, and I had the fortune to visit it during the press-exclusive days of the 20th and 21st in addition to the public days that followed. I came to the event with one goal: To play as much Dead or Alive 6 that I could at the Koei-Tecmo booth. I had previously had the chance to try an earlier demo during the Evolution 2018 (Evo) championships event this past summer, and was looking forward to seeing what had been updated.

I focused primarily on the new character to the series, Diego, at the Evo event since my preferred character (Bass) was not available. I had heard murmurs from the other players that they found Diego to be too strong in such an early build, and wanted to see how he might have been changed. While it's too early to say whether a character is over or under powered, I would have to say that Diego isn't an over-powered character. Based on my experiences with the character at both events, and granted some "character bias" may be in effect here, I would say the character certainly has good throw damage, a good 1PP, and a nice 1K poke. However, he doesn't have much of a good critical game. That is to say, outside of a good Fatal Rush string, he doesn't have any real way to guarantee launchers or extend critical.

Evo was a more hectic and fast-paced event due to the demonstration booths being set up in a way to promote playing the demo with another player. Players would be escorted to stations in a two-man group. This is in contrast to the experience I had at TGS where people were being escorted on a single player basis. A lot of that design is most likely due to a combination of the atmosphere and the culture surrounding the event, especially on the Press-exclusive days. What this meant for me as a fan of the series since I first played Dead or Alive++ was that I would spend most of my time alone with the build. Trust me when I say trying to manage two controllers or arcade sticks to test frame specific timings is a difficult task. Furthermore, the TGS build did not offer an option to see Move Details, even though the option had been announced in the months prior to the event. This limited what I was able to figure out about the build.

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Public days at TGS were packed with a line exceeding an hour wait.


The public days didn't fare much better, as the language barrier made it difficult to express desire to test or show things of the system. I had to also keep reminding myself that this was the first time 99.9% of those in attendance were even getting a chance to experience Dead or Alive 6 in any form. The players weren't afforded the opportunities I was by having not only the three days at Evo to get a baseline feel, but the two additional Press days I had with the TGS build. That being said, I was able to get a few matches in with other players like Miyabin and Demekun (Links are to recorded match videos), and it was certainly nice to experience playing Dead or Alive 6 with my preferred controller style of an arcade stick.

The first thing I wanted to test out was the idea of free cancelling the Break Blow cinematic. This was actually a feature from all the way back in the E3 announcement, but it was never announced or shown off properly. I didn't get any time to practice this feature during Evo because I did not find out about it until the stations had already closed. The Break Blow Cancel is done by pressing the Hold button during a small window after the Break Blow lands but before the cinematic kicks off. This effectively uses your full gauge to reset the Critical system and leave the opponent in a Fatal Stun, instead of using it for one hard knock back hit. This also means that since you can juggle an opponent with a Fatal Rush that automatically blends into a Break Blow should you have 100% Break Gauge, you can do a short juggle and re-stand your opponent to launch them again provided your opponent does not Break Hold with 50% of their gauge. Interestingly, if you mash on the Hold button while either in start up of the Break Blow or after the hit has landed, the game seems to ignore the cancel. So the cancel is something that has to be timed specifically with care.

Image: /images/news/8060/26173.jpgNow, testing out the Break Blow Cancel I had many ideas and strategies come to my mind on possibilities of combo extensions, utilizing danger zones, and taking further advantage on an opponent who either had no meter to Break Hold or wasted it by whiffing one. However, while there certainly are long guaranteed combos that are possible, I began to notice that damage revision picks up rather fast once you have launched the opponent. Since Move Details were not available, it's quite difficult to guess at the percentage of revision. I was verified later by Team NINJA community manager Emmanuel "Master" Rodriguez that there is some heavy revision after a few juggle hits have occurred. Additionally, knocking an opponent into a danger zone, while giving them a possible opportunity to hold in some danger zones, doesn't appear to fully reset the Critical system as some combos in the initial Critical state wouldn't appear to work in these "reset" situations as it only allowed fewer hits. Eventually, I began to find combos where doing the Break Blow Cancel, extending the Critical stuns, and relaunching into a Danger Zone seemed to provide more damage than had I not cancelled to begin with. However, that is at the risk of an opponent holding out of the stuns should they gain meter and want to use them.

Additionally, the Critical state itself seemed to have been lessened. Overall, I got a feeling that while stuns were longer due to the removal of Stagger Escape and of long Fatal Stuns, the game seemed to have more focus on the Neutral game. That is, similar to Dead or Alive 2 and Dead or Alive 3, the first hit is the most important. Couple all that with the removal of the Critical Threshold Launch system introduced in Dead or Alive 4 where the closer to full Critical meant a higher launch, and the game feels like a return to the Stun-Launch system of old. This means that you are no longer required to play the Critical game. Your launch height is the same regardless of whether the opponent was early or late in the Critical Threshold system. The lack of Stagger Escape then also makes a lot of critical stuns be "Must Hold" situations.

On top of that, I was able to verify that the Critical System's Damage limits also have had a reduction. By testing with Hayabusa's jab (it's always been 10 damage in every Dead or Alive game) I was able to verify that Dead or Alive 6, at least at the time of the TGS build, has a smaller Critical System. It still plays off the core change introduced in Dead or Alive 4 where the attack putting the opponent into Critical won't count towards the damage threshold. Specifically, I was able to verify that the new damage limits are at 25/30/35 for normal, counter, and hi-counter blow. This is different from Dead or Alive 5 where the limits were 28/35/42. This further leads to the idea that Dead or Alive 6 appears to be having a more focused effort to strengthen the neutral meta-game and lower the amount of time during a match that the game is spent playing the Critical meta-game.

Another area I tested out was the side step system. It practically was unchanged from the Evo demo where the neutral side step felt exactly the same as Dead or Alive 5 and the side step attack felt extremely evasive. However, one instance while playing a pro player in the game stands out to me. I was demonstrating a lot of the system changes to the player, and during our casual matches I was abusing his very linear Hitomi with the side step attack. He exclaimed in shock, "I feel like I have to be careful with how and when I attack!". Instantly, we both felt that strengthening of the neutral game the system now has. To actually have the experience where the game wasn't all about the Critical system was very relieving for me as a player. I had other areas of the game I could focus my strategies on. I'm unsure if I can completely put into words my feelings at that moment, but I just remember me growing a smile.

I like that the Fatal Rush is a high attack, this makes high and low holding stronger, which in turn makes mid-hitting launchers more powerful. Keep in mind that launchers are scarier now as you don't have to play that stun game to get a good launch. While low holding might seem more powerful than a high hold, it's good to keep in mind that a launching attack will launch an opponent higher if they are in crouch state or holding low when hit. One good hit and you can find yourself on the receiving end of a danger zone, especially if your stage positioning and character match-up knowledge is poor. I feel that having the Fatal Rush as a high helps the balance of the attacks, the critical meta, and the game - at least in my view.

That being said, from my experiences at both Evo and TGS, I can say you can still play the game similarly to the style of Dead or Alive 5. It's just that the style may not be the optimal style to play this game, though it currently is the most popular due to players having seven years to practice the Dead or Alive 5 style. Of course, players haven't been given a lot of time with the game due to limited demos and the game is still changing as development continues. It excites me to think of what could be discovered once the game releases in February.

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Yohei Shimbori provided me an interview shortly after the event stream was turned off for the day.



On September 22nd, shortly after the event stream was turned off, I was able to get some time to talk to Dead or Alive 6 Producer and Director Yohei Shimbori. The interview was being done through a bilingual interpreter, and in doing so it is possible some of the wording may have been altered from Shimbori's original intent.

Matt Ponton (MP): The players have noticed that there is no Stagger Escape in Dead or Alive 6's demos. What was the thought process that went along with that decision, and why was it removed from the game after being in the system since Dead or Alive 2?

Image: /images/news/8060/26158.jpgYohei Shimbori (YS): So we started to remove the Stagger Escape mechanic because we didn’t want people to struggle with it; we don't want that to be an artificial skill barrier in order to become good at the game. Players aware of Stagger Escape were able to really speed up recovery and generally did so to the fastest degree, but for people who are new to the game the inclusion of Stagger Escape is hardly noticeable. So we really wanted to make the entry point a lot easier for newer players to the game by making fast recovery the default. So that's one of the reasons why we decided to remove it.

MP: With that in consideration, are you also keeping other areas of the system in mind in regards to balance, such as the Free Step Dash Cancel bug?

YS: The Free Step Dash Cancel bug is something we're looking to fix if it hasn't already been done. Were you able to perform it in this Tokyo Game Show demo?

Master: I have not been able to reproduce the Free Step Dash Cancel bug in the Dead or Alive 6 demo.

YS: So, that's something a small portion of the audience would like something like that, but really for the larger audience we definitely don't want that to be in the game. At one point we did consider incorporating that into the system, but then we thought that it would make it even harder for newer players to enter the game and so we decided against it.

MP: In my own tests on this demo I wasn't able to reproduce it as well. I wanted to make sure that the lack of Stagger Escape wouldn't be abusable with such a bug in the existing Critical System changes. In those tests I also noticed that the critical threshold has been shortened from 28/35/42 to 25/30/35 for normal/counter/hi-counter blow critical stun. It seems that there is less time in critical stun throughout the total time of the round itself. What led your team to decide to lower the amount of time spent in Critical state?

YS: Similar to the previous answer, we wanted to make something for every player. It's something that for people really good at the game they can more easily recover from that, but it's a lot harder for people who are newer. So we've adjusted that as well to make it easier for various types of players. We think it adds an additional layer to the strategy that's involved into the game. You know, it's not just simply about mind games that you're trying to fool the other player, but you really have to think and analyze things through. So this makes it even better for the more expert players.

MP: What led to the decision to remove the Critical Level Launch system that was featured in Dead or Alive 4 and Dead or Alive 5, where a higher Critical Level would reward a higher launch? Is this in relation to the theme of making it easier for new players and decreasing the amount of time a match is spent in Critical State?

YS: That's right. It is the result of decreasing the time spent in reading the critical game and emphasizing the neutral game.

MP: There's a lot of fans out there of Dead or Alive 4 and Dead or Alive 5's ground game. So what changes can they look forward to seeing in Dead or Alive 6 to help them keep pressure and perform setups against players laying on the ground?

YS: So in terms of the ground game, this is something that requires a lot of precise adjustments. You know, one wrong move can really upset the entire system. So it is something that we are still balancing at this point. It's not completely about force teching, and so we want to make sure that there are options for players who want to decide to take it on or want to try and counter it. Also, we are giving people the option of whether they want to get up on their own when they are knocked down. The significance of this may depend on the skill level of the player. But, let’s see how this evolves as we are still adjusting and balancing this feature.

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"We are looking to provide the game equally across all platforms. So we're not just focusing on Steam, but we are concentrating on all platforms being equal."


MP: Speaking of giving players an option to decide, Dead or Alive is the only major 3D Fighting game currently without a universal throw break system. Are there any plans in the future of adding more throws that are breakable on reaction?

YS: A universal throw break system is something that always comes up each time we make a new Dead or Alive game. Dead or Alive is really known for the triangle system, and that's something that we really value for this series. So if immediately you could just always do throw breaks we don't think it will make it a well-balanced game. So having all characters and all moves being able to do that is not something we are planning on incorporating. But one thing we are kind of looking at from a technical level is having around a five frame window for the throw break, and so the speed at which you break the throw will alter the advantage and disadvantage of the throw break. We think if we implement too much of it then it would really change that balance of what Dead or Alive is.

Image: /images/news/8060/26170.jpgMP: So the throw system is something that's still being worked on like the ground game?

YS: Yes, very much so. We're still working on many parts of the system as we come closer to Dead or Alive 6's release.

MP: Dead or Alive 6 appears to be using Steam as its lead platform. Since Dead or Alive 5 Last Round was the series' first foray into the personal computer world, is there anything that Steam users can look forward to specifically with Dead or Alive 6?

YS: We are looking to provide the game equally across all platforms. So we're not just focusing on Steam, but we are concentrating on all platforms being equal. We are aiming for them to be all equal, so the fact that there's a lobby feature is something that we would implement in all versions. That is something we are aiming for right now. Obviously, we are still in the middle of development so we can't exactly say what is going to be in the final product. Our plan is to aim to make the game equal across all platforms. So no matter which platform you own, we hope players should expect the same thing. Specifically for PC or Steam, everyone has different specs for their computers. So in terms of people who have high system specs, we are making it so that the graphics are the highest quality possible. For people who have lower system specs, something we are looking into now is how far we can support the lower end PCs and so that's something that's still under review.

MP: So Phase 4 and Nyotengu are two characters who are going to be early DLC characters. Fans of those two characters were a little upset that those two characters weren't added to the Dead or Alive 5 story upon their release. How will these two characters participate in the Dead or Alive 6 story?

YS: It depends on the character. We did just mention on the Tokyo Game Show stage that Nyotengu is getting a bit of a story for herself, but in terms of Phase 4 we don't really know at this point. It's a secret.

MP: So the story hasn't been finalized yet?

YS: We do have the story, but we just don't have the visuals to go with it yet.

MP: I unfortunately am being told I'm almost out of time here so I have one more hopefully quick question for you: Is Lisa dead?

YS: Lisa is alive. Actually, In Dead or Alive 5 when the M.I.S.T. laboratory exploded, she... Oops I cannot say any more.

That concluded my time with Yohei Shimbori and my experience at Tokyo Game Show. Dead or Alive 6 will be releasing on February 15, 2019 for PlayStation 4, Xbox One, and Steam. The next playable demo for Dead or Alive 6 will be at the Dead or Alive Festival 2018 event at the Ochanomizu Sola City Conference Center in Tokyo, Japan on November 18.
 
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SFV was reduced to 6 frames during season 1. 6 currently seems to be the standard for a number of games (KoFXIV, Injustice, MKX, etc.). But yes, variable input delay at certain points is still a problem.


And this is exactly why it puts emphasis on the neutral game. Because there are heavy consequences for losing in the neutral game.



Funnily enough, both games you mentioned (SFV and T7) allow for some pretty big damage off a single hit.

More importantly, they don't give you chances to escape from the combo once you're hit.
lol,SFV big damage?seriously? If you are saying Abgail vs Gouki,,oh well
In TK7 you would get big damage only if your back close to a wall,and TK7 never allow you lie on the floor safely

The point is,these 2 games encourage players to try hard to be offensive,in DOA6,guarantee punish is the king
 
PC version of DOA5 I believe has 1 frame delay? I could be wrong, @WAZAAAAA would know for sure. PS4 version has about 7 frames more than whatever the PC version has due to the system's inherent delay. SFV had about 8 frames of delay on PC, and I think they just announced they are able to shave off 2 more frames with an upcoming update to Unreal? Oh, and SFV's frame delay was variable, even offline. You could be playing at any moment and it changes the input delay by 2 or 3 frames, on the consoles as well.
my ghetto input delay testing method only checks how many frames of lag a game adds "in the code itself", enforced by the mechanics. I have some numbers:
indie games Skullgirls and Fantasy Strike add 0 frames of input delay
DOA5 adds either 1 frame of delay for leniency reasons or 0 when blocking or waking up
T7 adds 2 frames of artificial lag. 1 of the frames is moddable and exists to make the offline play more similar to the online (lmfao), and the other frame is seemingly there for no reason and unmoddable.

But these aren't the effective, "final" delays. For example, recently Fantasy Strike was calculated to have 6 frames of lag with VSync ON, and 5 frames OFF. It runs on Unity.

T7 is the game that applied that one Unreal Engine 4.19 input latency patch. SF5 had a bug with non-legacy controllers having more input lag than legacy ones, that's the one they fixed afaik.



Yeah it's refreshing to hear that even with the removal of SE the stuns are reduced. One thing I'd kind of like to see is that lighter attacks in deep stun don't have as much as an impact as they did/currently do in the game. For example, it would be lit to see if the "only" way to carry on the threshold is to use moves that have stunning on normal and counter hit properties. Like in DOA2 for example. Jann Lee's 8P in stun wouldn't give enough advantage for him to hit any follow up attacks. Hayabusa's 4P6P didn't put the enemy in deep stun on CH like it did in 5. It just pushed the enemy back a bit and Ryu got a bit of advantage. I think Ein's 66P had a similar effect. Zack's 7P has this effect in DOA5, but only at the end of the threshold.
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It would also be good to take away counter hit properties when you catch someone backdashing. This shouldn't be the case anymore since we tryna beef up neutral and lessen the stun fest type gameplay that DOA4 and 5 kept on.
yes yES YES TO ALL OF THE ABOVE
Another example of this stunfest trend is how they changed Ein 6P+K from DOA2U to DOA5. It used to be a long ass move with huge knockback for the neutral... it turned into a damn CB =_=. H+K is another blatant example, in DOA5 it causes... deep stun?! It used to be another neutral tool with a cool ass knockback goddayum.
 
lol,SFV big damage?seriously? If you are saying Abgail vs Gouki,,oh well
In TK7 you would get big damage only if your back close to a wall,and TK7 never allow you lie on the floor safely

The point is,these 2 games encourage players to try had to be offensive,in DOA6,guarantee punish is the king
In T7 you don't need a wall for big damage, some characters like Lili can literally get half life damage just from a launcher like her Matterhorn Ascension, not even regarding counter hits in open space xD
 
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But there are also heavy consequences for a particular system being used as a crutch. Most people haven't provided a definite answer to what exactly on neutral they are seeking when a triangle system is in place.
Because an RPS guessing game isn't exactly good neutral, being up close and applying pressure isn't even considered neutral. Neutral is when both players are free to move around and neither player is being forced to defend. Here, both players have access to both their tools, and movement is as just as important as the moves themselves. Once a player is able to force their opponent to block a number of hits, then neutral ends and the pressure phase begins.

The triangle system actually works well when in these 2 phases (neutral and pressure) when its something that can reset back to neutral. Once the triangle system and other ways to reset to neutral have been applied in combos however, they act more and more like crutches, especially if they become heavy factors in getting damage (e.g. with the critical threshold system). This is why most combo breaking systems are subject to all sorts of limits - animé games have burts tied to a separate meter, KI puts all sorts of consequences (e.g. lockouts) to using the wrong breaker.

lol,SFV big damage?seriously? If you are saying Abgail vs Gouki,,oh well
In TK7 you would get big damage only if your back close to a wall,and TK7 never allow you lie on the floor safely

The point is,these 2 games encourage players to try hard to be offensive,in DOA6,guarantee punish is the king
Yeah, the top tiers all can do massive amounts of damage, and steal rounds from under players. Guess which characters are winning tournaments, or are just generally being used for competitive play?
 
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In T7 you don't need a wall for big damage, some characters like Lili can literally get half life damage just from a launcher like her Matterhorn Ascension, not even regarding counter hits in open space xD
I can't remember the name,indeed there are some dangerous set-ups in TK7 too,but clearly much harder to hit than in DOA,mostly it's slow&unsafe

TK's character's neutral move speed is like trash,you have to learn that wind-god move which is harder,so TK's neutral game is like really hard for newcomers
 
You're going to complain about how there's a 3 point hold system in DOA3 and that you can lose 40-80% of your life as punishment for holding?
Cause it's a random game,a lucky shot may change the whole match,seriously?
Then why VF&SC matches they baned ring out? And why many DOA5 matchs ban that "Danger Zone"?
 
Cause it's a random game,a lucky shot may change the whole match,seriously?
Then why VF&SC matches they baned ring out? And why many DOA5 matchs ban that "Danger Zone"?

They never banned ringouts for VF and SC. It's part of the game element, taking that away just doesn't feel like it's their game.

Only Japan until EVO so far banned Dangerzone, but reasons was explained later on.
 
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I can't remember the name,indeed there are some dangerous set-ups in TK7 too,but clearly much harder to hit than in DOA,mostly it's slow&unsafe
LOL, yet this is a game where one character (who was buffed in the recent patch mind you) get's a near guaranteed unblockable after combos.
TK's character's neutral move speed is like trash,you have to learn that wind-god move which is harder,so TK's neutral game is like really hard for newcomers
Which is why people say that Tekken puts an emphasis on neutral. Because it takes a lot of skill to do the advanced mechanics (e.g. Korean Back Dash) you need to learn so that players just don't get in on you and open you up. And the reason players learn those mechanics, is because they don't want to get opened up because there are consequences.
Cause it's a random game,a lucky shot may change the whole match,seriously?
Then why VF&SC matches they baned ring out? And why many DOA5 matchs ban that "Danger Zone"?
Clearly you missed SoulCal 4 where Hilde was a threat just because she could ring you out in one combo.
 
LOL, yet this is a game where one character (who was buffed in the recent patch mind you) get's a near guaranteed unblockable after combos.

Which is why people say that Tekken puts an emphasis on neutral. Because it takes a lot of skill to do the advanced mechanics (e.g. Korean Back Dash) you need to learn so that players just don't get in on you and open you up. And the reason players learn those mechanics, is because they don't want to get opened up because there are consequences.

Tekken needs that movement. Makes whiff punishment part of the strong keys which is important, the ability to KBD and block from the backdash due to no block button makes it essential for Tekken on KBD. Not doing it leaves you stationary for the most part which is dangerous overall. Gotta move.
 
Cause it's a random game,a lucky shot may change the whole match,seriously?
Because, at the end of the day, randomness is controlled by the format itself. It's harder to get lucky in 3 rounds in a game, let alone in a best of 3 or best of 5 set.
 
I can't remember the name,indeed there are some dangerous set-ups in TK7 too,but clearly much harder to hit than in DOA,mostly it's slow&unsafe

TK's character's neutral move speed is like trash,you have to learn that wind-god move which is harder,so TK's neutral game is like really hard for newcomers
Not really tbh, Tekken has a very simple and pretty clear aimed neutral game, as long as you're not mashing buttons or attacking at the wrong time you won't take any damage, you don't even need to hold a block button, just watch your opponent carefully and utilize the attack that will shut down a situation. I never understood tbh why people think Tekken is insanely hard since its not much really to know besides the mechanics and such which can be learnt through experience although a tutorial would have been optimal in regards to stuff like the KBD and such since those are almost necessary at high level so you don't get opened up or overwhelmed.
 
Not really tbh, Tekken has a very simple and pretty clear aimed neutral game, as long as you're not mashing buttons or attacking at the wrong time you won't take any damage, you don't even need to hold a block button, just watch your opponent carefully and utilize the attack that will shut down a situation. I never understood tbh why people think Tekken is insanely hard since its not much really to know besides the mechanics and such which can be learnt through experience although a tutorial would have been optimal in regards to stuff like the KBD and such since those are almost necessary at high level so you don't get opened up or overwhelmed.
I agree you that TK's system is a little bit simple,at least compared to DOA5
The point is,TK series never try to make it easier to newcomers,neither wind-god dash,nor big damage combos is easy for new players to performe
In fact in DOA5,ops a PP6PK juggle string could damage over 40%lifebar,if you lucky enough hit on a danger zone,it could be higher,new players could do this in five minutes learing,so DOA series are noob friendly enough,why does TN want IT be more easier,I can't understand
 
Not really tbh, Tekken has a very simple and pretty clear aimed neutral game, as long as you're not mashing buttons or attacking at the wrong time you won't take any damage, you don't even need to hold a block button, just watch your opponent carefully and utilize the attack that will shut down a situation. I never understood tbh why people think Tekken is insanely hard since its not much really to know besides the mechanics and such which can be learnt through experience although a tutorial would have been optimal in regards to stuff like the KBD and such since those are almost necessary at high level so you don't get opened up or overwhelmed.

I think most of the situations is people probably overwhelmed by it for finding longevity with the game. For start, Harada refused to put in frame data, but most of the game help was done by the community over the years so it's not entirely bad. Lots of players from other fighting games jumped into Tekken thinking they'll learn everything like in a week. That stuff could take months, maybe even a year or two for people to settle in it. Most Tekken players absorbed the game no problem simply because they've been playing the game for years. All comes down to motivation, positive enjoyment, and at least some patience, if you don't have those three then Tekken won't be that game for them on the long run.

A bit off topic up there, but overall, I'm excited for DOA6 and hopefully we can see a demo.
 
I never understood tbh why people think Tekken is insanely hard since its not much really to know besides the mechanics and such which can be learnt through experience...

Its hard for the same reason every other Fighting Game is hard... Complex inputs and Strict Timing... its also the one thing no series ever wants to address.

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Which is why people say that Tekken puts an emphasis on neutral. Because it takes a lot of skill to do the advanced mechanics (e.g. Korean Back Dash) you need to learn so that players just don't get in on you and open you up. And the reason players learn those mechanics, is because they don't want to get opened up because there are consequences.

This Is one of those "Busy Work" mechanics just like Stagger Escape was in DoA5. Increasing the number of inputs doesn't make the game deeper. DoA's freestepping achieves the exact same result without Hurting your wrist. Even VF didn't stoop that low... you had a pretty damn good back dash then didn't need to be SS Cancelled... although I never did get the hang of Side Steppin in the game...

But these aren't the effective, "final" delays. For example, recently Fantasy Strike was calculated to have 6 frames of lag with VSync ON, and 5 frames OFF. It runs on Unity.

For a game where you can't block without moving I feel like it should be better... especially if you play Jaina...

Cause it's a random game,a lucky shot may change the whole match,seriously?
Then why VF&SC matches they baned ring out? And why many DOA5 matchs ban that "Danger Zone"?

I assumed it was because they were Boring and Anti-Climactic. The same critism has been made about Quidditch. You have an elaborate system that involves teams, balls and points and some jerk off to the side grabs the Golden Snitch ends the game regardless of who was winning.

I'l give the edge to VF/SC because atleast Ring Outs were quick... The Dangerzone combos were so long they made me sleepy.
 
Its hard for the same reason every other Fighting Game is hard... Complex inputs and Strict Timing... its also the one thing no series ever wants to address.



This Is one of those "Busy Work" mechanics just like Stagger Escape was in DoA5. Increasing the number of inputs doesn't make the game deeper. DoA's freestepping achieves the exact same result without Hurting your wrist. Even VF didn't stoop that low... you had a pretty damn good back dash then didn't need to be SS Cancelled... although I never did get the hang of Side Steppin in the game...



For a game where you can't block without moving I feel like it should be better... especially if you play Jaina...



I assumed it was because they were Boring and Anti-Climactic. The same critism has been made about Quidditch. You have an elaborate system that involves teams, balls and points and some jerk off to the side grabs the Golden Snitch ends the game regardless of who was winning.

I'l give the edge to VF/SC because atleast Ring Outs were quick... The Dangerzone combos were so long they made me sleepy.
Tekken isn't really complex or strict tbh unless you're playing a mishima or another high execution character, but then again I only would use Lili, or even Anna who's the most complex character in Tekken I can use


Also on topic it would be neat if they made an open beta or even had like a contest of some sort to give players a sort of early play beta of the game like I know a couple of people I've watched play but idk if they would do that yet xD
 
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This Is one of those "Busy Work" mechanics just like Stagger Escape was in DoA5. Increasing the number of inputs doesn't make the game deeper. DoA's freestepping achieves the exact same result without Hurting your wrist. Even VF didn't stoop that low... you had a pretty damn good back dash then didn't need to be SS Cancelled... although I never did get the hang of Side Steppin in the game...
It's less busy work and more just a natural consequence of the system. Advanced movement happens because players will look to make movement safe. At the same time, trying to change things just because it feels like "busywork" can fundamentally change the game, sometimes not for the better.

Look at how StarCraft 2 fixed the pathing and removed unit selection restrictions from Brood War. The result was a less interesting game focused around "death balls" instead of precise movement and control.

Games are full of these advanced things that players discover in an effort to play around the system that end up defining them at high level play.
 
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