Helena 1.04

CrimsonCJ

Active Member
1.3KK
2. 236P+K, wont be completely useless now.
3. 214[P] make it faster first.

All of these are good ideas. As it stands, you pretty much have to land 214P on a screwed up hold or something else gimmicky. As it stands right now, it's gimmicky.

3KK would almost be lethal. I shouldn't say anything bad about it, but I'm not sure it's totally fair in the DOA verse because if you could CB off that thing, she might go the way of pre-1.0.3 Jann Lee. If it was a relatively shallow sit-down, perhaps that would be a decent compromise.

236P+K... probably by far the most graceful way of dealing with that move. Even with advantage on block, its range still makes most other options better. (Even if buffed to an effective sit-down stun, the improved SS game is going to make it harder for that move, at over 20 frames, to look anything like an overpowered move)

That said... I still want to save the basic handslaps somehow. Could they be negotiated to a +0 frames on early tech, somehow? (I don't know how you would have to add those frames off of making certain parts of the move in a juggle state or not, and right now it's sitting on what I think it actually a -3 if you count from the moment of the tech rather than the expected 6P, but...)

Oh, and her BKO 6P+K? Much better than 7P just for the animation alone. It is actually pretty slow, but not only is it less awkward, the first few frames are functionally hard to see.
 

Doug Nguyen

Well-Known Member
All of these are good ideas. As it stands, you pretty much have to land 214P on a screwed up hold or something else gimmicky. As it stands right now, it's gimmicky.

3KK would almost be lethal. I shouldn't say anything bad about it, but I'm not sure it's totally fair in the DOA verse because if you could CB off that thing, she might go the way of pre-1.0.3 Jann Lee. If it was a relatively shallow sit-down, perhaps that would be a decent compromise.

236P+K... probably by far the most graceful way of dealing with that move. Even with advantage on block, its range still makes most other options better. (Even if buffed to an effective sit-down stun, the improved SS game is going to make it harder for that move, at over 20 frames, to look anything like an overpowered move)

That said... I still want to save the basic handslaps somehow. Could they be negotiated to a +0 frames on early tech, somehow? (I don't know how you would have to add those frames off of making certain parts of the move in a juggle state or not, and right now it's sitting on what I think it actually a -3 if you count from the moment of the tech rather than the expected 6P, but...)

Oh, and her BKO 6P+K? Much better than 7P just for the animation alone. It is actually pretty slow, but not only is it less awkward, the first few frames are functionally hard to see.
Wait so now she's at -3 because they can tech roll the last punch on he 3in1's? Also random but have you ever had that feint stun from Helena's BKO 6P4P, It happens when i think only 2 slaps hit you for her 4P part. Ive never seen anyone hold out of it but its always random.
 

CrimsonCJ

Active Member
Wait so now she's at -3 because they can tech roll the last punch on he 3in1's? Also random but have you ever had that feint stun from Helena's BKO 6P4P, It happens when i think only 2 slaps hit you for her 4P part. Ive never seen anyone hold out of it but its always random.

Basically, the 3in1's get tech'd out of such that by the time they finish rolling up, you'll be at -3. (I'd like someone else to confirm, but that's what I understand) As to the 6P4P; yes, but I've never been able to make anything of it.
 

Doug Nguyen

Well-Known Member
Basically, the 3in1's get tech'd out of such that by the time they finish rolling up, you'll be at -3. (I'd like someone else to confirm, but that's what I understand) As to the 6P4P; yes, but I've never been able to make anything of it.
Wow -3, thats pretty bad for having done a combo, thats ridiculous. I guess ill skip her 33P4P enders and just do 236PKP. But for her 6P4P, i normally do 4K. But i never expect it since its always so random. So many times ill just let them fall over.
 

CrimsonCJ

Active Member
Wow -3, thats pretty bad for having done a combo, thats ridiculous. I guess ill skip her 33P4P enders and just do 236PKP. But for her 6P4P, i normally do 4K. But i never expect it since its always so random. So many times ill just let them fall over.
Yeah, it's the "I can't plan this" factor of 6P4P that gets me.

I still need to rework all of my ends in the combos, which I don't like but I'm getting used to. (Though I still have been trying to work on combos that get me into a decent pseudo instead of the 236PKP ender, because IMO that's not a situation that is wonderful for Helena.)
 

Doug Nguyen

Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's the "I can't plan this" factor of 6P4P that gets me.

I still need to rework all of my ends in the combos, which I don't like but I'm getting used to. (Though I still have been trying to work on combos that get me into a decent pseudo instead of the 236PKP ender, because IMO that's not a situation that is wonderful for Helena.)
Yeah its weird. It would be nice if we could control it. Have you come up with any new combos post patch?
 

CrimsonCJ

Active Member
Yeah its weird. It would be nice if we could control it. Have you come up with any new combos post patch?
Slowly. Mostly, I've been working on combos that end in 8PP(delay)2P, which is another tech. The height is not as convenient (it's used on low height strings, but not near floor), but it can be effective as momentum control. And then I'll probably just ending more on the 66K out of backturn.

All are decent options, though none nearly as consistent as 33P4P. Honestly, we'll probably never get that back, but if it got to a point where it came up a touch closer to the +0 dot, I'd be OK. I almost am of half the mind to keep them as is because people just do the most garbage things even on teching it properly, throwing out random highs and stuff. But you don't want to rely on an opponent's stupidity.
 

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
Ryujin just told me that only one of her force tech set ups got nerfed, does that mean they can tech early on 33P4P but not the other 3in1's?
 

vINv

Active Member
I would appreciate some games with any of u experinced helena players need the help
 

CrimsonCJ

Active Member
Ryujin just told me that only one of her force tech set ups got nerfed, does that mean they can tech early on 33P4P but not the other 3in1's?

Testing it... the BT 4PPP seems to be working as prepatch. (I should stop trusting people who tell me things, I swear). BKO 6P4PP is altered similarly to 33P4P.

And here's the thing about the existing 33P4P tech... it's not really that bad. The -3 comes basically from wiffing a 6P during the tech up animation, but if you transition something in range out of the 6P (6PP, 6P4PP), you still can stuff an oncoming button press. Further, the whole "let them tech and react accordingly thing" works well. Basically, the difference is you have to just watch, because you're going to know if they tech before they hit the ground now. I'm still not sure I like it (because I don't know the full range of consistency you can get when stuffing an attack with a 6P string), but I'm not sure I'm ditching it.
 

vINv

Active Member
Edit: completely mis worded prior post and hope i didnt offend any one i meant to say is i would like some games with u experinced helena players need help been getting trashed by good people and i want her up to snuff for offline scene
 

MajesticBlue

Active Member
"All drop (vertical) kicks cannot be tech rolled."

Does Helena have anything that would fit that descritpion? Also it doesn't necessarily have to be a kick, since Ryu has a force tech with 6KP. Helena has handslaps or whatever though so I am sure you all figured that. Maybe even other moves that cause a hard knockdown. Also if she had any other moves that gave her odd knock down properties that would be worth another look. I don't have the patch so I really don't know what elements make up the new force techs. I highly doubt timing is the only factor as it was in Doa 4 (I could be wrong). The reason I say that is from what I see all of Ryu's force techs were Pseudo's (since they gave hard knock down) before the patch. Just kinda curious if you guys find anything.
 

CrimsonCJ

Active Member
Edit: completely mis worded prior post and hope i didnt offend any one i meant to say is i would like some games with u experinced helena players need help been getting trashed by good people and i want her up to snuff for offline scene
Not offended at all. You on PSN or 360?

"All drop (vertical) kicks cannot be tech rolled."

Does Helena have anything that would fit that descritpion? Also it doesn't necessarily have to be a kick, since Ryu has a force tech with 6KP. Helena has handslaps or whatever though so I am sure you all figured that. Maybe even other moves that cause a hard knockdown. Also if she had any other moves that gave her odd knock down properties that would be worth another look. I don't have the patch so I really don't know what elements make up the new force techs. I highly doubt timing is the only factor as it was in Doa 4 (I could be wrong). The reason I say that is from what I see all of Ryu's force techs were Pseudo's (since they gave hard knock down) before the patch. Just kinda curious if you guys find anything.

Eh, I dunno. Like, the first thing that comes to mind for me is BT4PK, which has hard grounding properties in certain angles and is a vertical kick, but it gets teched as a pseudo still. (Though I may not understand the patch note. Does the kick land on a grounded opponent rather than grounding them? If so, I've never, ever landed BT4PK on a grounded opponent and not sure you exactly can.)
 

vINv

Active Member
Xbox i made sminus with her i just dunno what to do to go to the next level and im not sure if i should main helena i seems like im more solid with kas dunno need opionions and help im learning both girls atm because i cant decide between the two of them and tinas the sub
 

deathofaninja

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
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Xbox i made sminus with her i just dunno what to do to go to the next level and im not sure if i should main helena i seems like im more solid with kas dunno need opionions and help im learning both girls atm because i cant decide between the two of them and tinas the sub

In my opinion, it's whoever you have the most fun playing as. I could easily tell you my choice between the two, but why would you care? It's your main you're looking for and in the long run, anyone can give you advice, but you should decide your main on your own. :)
 

vINv

Active Member
I think part of it is i want b able play on the tournament lvl play and idk which one comes more natural i think at the end of it ill sub the other
 

MajesticBlue

Active Member
Not offended at all. You on PSN or 360?



Eh, I dunno. Like, the first thing that comes to mind for me is BT4PK, which has hard grounding properties in certain angles and is a vertical kick, but it gets teched as a pseudo still. (Though I may not understand the patch note. Does the kick land on a grounded opponent rather than grounding them? If so, I've never, ever landed BT4PK on a grounded opponent and not sure you exactly can.)

Whatever option you go for needs to hit them before they hit the ground I am pretty sure. Old force techs needed to connect on the frame they reached the ground. At one point I recall team ninja making a change that allows you to tech on the first frame though. If I had to guess there is a small window now that if you land a hard knock down they are forced to tech. So I really don't know if it is hitting them on the first grounded frame or you are hiting them before. Sorry, wish I was more help.
 

BlackDiamond890

New Member
Ok, since I do not have the PS3 version, I would like to ask for some testing by someone, anyone honeslty.

I rememer them mentioning patching Helena's 3KK, because the stun it caused was supposed to be invincible halfway through it, preventing the Critical Stun loops. Jann Lee's 6 F+K causes the exact same stun, was this changed with him as well?

Also, with 33P4P being techable, what advantage/disadvantage does Helena get if she does nothing against an opponent that techs as early as possible? No 6P.
 

CrimsonCJ

Active Member
Whatever option you go for needs to hit them before they hit the ground I am pretty sure. Old force techs needed to connect on the frame they reached the ground. At one point I recall team ninja making a change that allows you to tech on the first frame though. If I had to guess there is a small window now that if you land a hard knock down they are forced to tech. So I really don't know if it is hitting them on the first grounded frame or you are hiting them before. Sorry, wish I was more help.
I'm pretty sure BT4PK doesn't apply then. It acts as a pseudo in any situation before the ground that is humanly possible.

Ok, since I do not have the PS3 version, I would like to ask for some testing by someone, anyone honeslty.

I rememer them mentioning patching Helena's 3KK, because the stun it caused was supposed to be invincible halfway through it, preventing the Critical Stun loops. Jann Lee's 6 F+K causes the exact same stun, was this changed with him as well?

Also, with 33P4P being techable, what advantage/disadvantage does Helena get if she does nothing against an opponent that techs as early as possible? No 6P.

I think the JL 6H+K got changed as well...

Someone would really have to do a full manual frame count for the 33P4P with early tech to be certain, but I've been recording it at -3 because of the way an immediate wiffed 6P shows up after the tech (-15). I'd really like to be wrong.
 

ninjaguy446

Well-Known Member
Guys, I have great news! I just downloaded the patch, and the opponent can't tech before the last hit of handslaps (back to before the last patch)! I tested in training on Christie with teching on and I've tried all of the combos that I know just to make sure d I'm pretty sure I'm right that they can't tech until the last hit! This is great news for Helena! :D
 
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