DOA5U Ein's Match-up Rating Discussion

[Tenryuga]

I understand your reasoning in this matchup, but the worst this matchup can go for either character is a 5-5; I feel that this is a completely even matchup... I say this because Ein's spacing (vs Rachel) is equally as good as Rachel's CQC (vs Ein)... Rachel has the range game of a cap gun, and Ein fighting so close against such a mid-oriented character, is like countering against Tina.
This matchup is immediately decided by the range of the fight in the first few seconds of the round; if Rachel has to contend with max range 2H+Ks from Ein in the first 10-15 seconds of the round, keeping her out will be a piece of cake (as long as you're patient.) I also feel that this matchup is so even because both of the characters have equally shitty tracking, and Ein's anti-grab game is on level with Rachel's grab setups, so he won't get blown up with launch grabs... If you don't agree I completely understand, that's how I see the matchup now...

Before I felt this was a 4-6 in Rachels favor but thought 5-5 was reasonable. Now I defenitely feel this is a 5-5 matchup due to the nerfs.

 

[Zeo]

Necroposting this topic. How is Ein vs Lei 4-6 in Lei's favor? She has no range and she's slower than Kasumi up close. Her ranged tools are telegraphed and slow and 1P+K isn't a guard break anymore. Her holds are scary but getting into Ein's range from a distance and guess holding what he's going to do isn't the smartest idea.

 

[Tenryuga]

Necroposting this topic. How is Ein vs Lei 4-6 in Lei's favor? She has no range and she's slower than Kasumi up close. Her ranged tools are telegraphed and slow and 1P+K isn't a guard break anymore. Her holds are scary but getting into Ein's range from a distance and guess holding what he's going to do isn't the smartest idea.

I would say this match is fair. The fact of the matter is that If you have no answers to Ein's zoning you are having a hard time against him. He only has slight trouble up close IMO because the he is worried about Unshu parry screwing his counter hit attempts from his punches. IMO as long as Ein can zone somebody and have his 2P pressure remain effective when the opponent is close the match up is fair to 6-4 in his favor.

 

[Crext]

Edited.

 

[Nameless Sama]

Hello People I have practiced the basics with Ein and I learned some combos. I only use Ryu and Ein. I can use my first main very well but with Ein I have a little online experience. I think it would be the best training If I am playing against other good ein players to learn from them. We can help each other and get better with Ein.
I am on both consoles.

 

[xSA Mulatto]

has this changed since any of his buffs??????

 

[Tenryuga]

IMO his MU's are as follows:

Advantage (6-4): Brad Wong.

Disadvantage (4-6): Christie, Ayane, Kasumi, VF characters except Jacky, Helena, Hayate.

Even: Everybody else.

 

[NinjaSol1988]

Nice find and like another person ein and ryu birthday just past I just hpe I can get my hands on that new ps3 than training can start

 

[Tenryuga]

EIN MATCHUPS


Alpha 152: 5-5 (?)

Akira: 4-6

Ayane: 4-6

Bass: 5-5

Bayman: 5-5

Brad Wong: 6-4

Christie: 4-6

Ein: 5-5

Eliot: 6-4

Gen Fu: 4-6

Hayabusa: 5-5

Hayate: 5-5

Helena: 4-6

Hitomi: 5-5

Jacky: 5-5

Jann Lee: 5-5 (?)

Kasumi: 4-6

Kokoro: 5-5

Lisa: 5-5

Leifang: 4-6

Leon: 5-5

Marie Rose: 5-5 (?)

Mila: 4-6

Momiji: 5-5

Pai: 4-6

Rachel: 5-5

Rig: 5-5

Sarah: 4-6

Tina: 5-5

Zack: 5-5 (?)


Advantage MUs: 2

Disadvantage MUs: 10

Even MUs: 18

 

[JAG THE GEMINI]

I never saw a tier list were only 4-6, 5-5 or 6-4 results do exist. oO

 

[XZero264]

People refuse to acknowledge that 7-3 or worse/better is possible for some matchups because one attribute of the 3 makes it shift ever so slightly enough to a 4.

Edit: I never said anything about this in regards to Ein, this is an FSD thing in general.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I don't play a lot of Ein, but I don't feel like the Ayane matchup and the Leifang matchup can be both 4-6. Like it'd have to be 3.51-6.49 against Ayane and 4.49-5.51 against Leifang if that. I actually think it's even against Leifang, but I can't say for sure 'cause my local Ein players are still learning. And Ayane doesn't let Ein dominate the spacing like he does for most matchups and she can beat him out or crush him up close. I feel like that's closer to a 3-7.

 

[Tenryuga]

I don't play a lot of Ein, but I don't feel like the Ayane matchup and the Leifang matchup can be both 4-6. Like it'd have to be 3.51-6.49 against Ayane and 4.49-5.51 against Leifang if that. I actually think it's even against Leifang, but I can't say for sure 'cause my local Ein players are still learning. And Ayane doesn't let Ein dominate the spacing like he does for most matchups and she can beat him out or crush him up close. I feel like that's closer to a 3-7.

Nah in CQC Ayane is committing to highs to shut Ein down which in turn makes the high hold valuable in this MU. And that's doing 58-87 pts per read.

At range Ayane is better due to her mobility however IMO Ein's reward for landing a whiff punish is greater because it is immediate albeit inconsistent due to how walls are as well as the range needed to get a followup juggle. In these situations he does 80+ on NH minimum. On Ein's life lead Ayane is in a frustrating position because instead of dancing around doing whatever she wants she is dancing around trying to get in when she doesn't even have a solid way of doing so. So Ein will keep her out and capitalize off her mistakes easier.

So no this is not 7-3. Ein causes annoyances for Ayane at certain points in the match.


As for Lei there is no way that is even. Lei has blockstrings that allow her to free cancel and crush Eins mid attempts with her shoulder ram and 1P+K. Even during spacing she can be as sloppy as she wants and still scrub her way out of whiff punishment with 1P+K.

I shouldn't have to talk about CQC here but I will anyway lol. You have unshu, you have parries, you have a 12i mid you have a K that outdamages and outspeeds my 13i mid when I'm at +1 I believe. You should not be getting counterhit often here unless you are comitting to crushing or generic P / 6P poking at my +1 and making bad reads.

I only have the edge at one part in the fight and even then you have legitimate and gimmicky ways of avoiding whiff punishment. 6-4 Lei IMO.

 

[JAG THE GEMINI]

People refuse to acknowledge that 7-3 or worse/better is possible for some matchups because one attribute of the 3 makes it shift ever so slightly enough to a 4.

Edit: I never said anything about this in regards to Ein, this is an FSD thing in general.

No 7-3 or 3-7 match ups in this game at all? I heard this before but i never thought that most people would agree with that...

 

[StrikerSashi]

If it's legitimate whiff punishment, 1P+K isn't gonna do anything. She can't just cancel a whiffed attack's recovery into 1P+K. If she can 1P+K, she's already fully recovered. Ironically, 1P+K is the whiff punisher. It has a lot less range than people think. Her only options at mid range are to dash up and block, dash up and 1P+K outside your range to bait a whiff, hope you try to come in and K2K, or something really telegraphed like 6H+K (There's no reason for anyone to get hit by this unless it crushed a low kick or something 'cause it's 28f startup and insanely telegraphed). This is hella in Ein's favor. There's an entire list of Ein moves that are better at range than all of Leifang's moves. Plus, Ein combos often end with Leifang across the screen so it's not like it's rare to be at this range.

Free cancelling into crushes is also far from free. If you block her shoulder, that's like 100 damage punishment 'cause it's -15 back turned. Same for all her crushes. They're all around -12 except 1P+K which is only -5. You can literally whiff a move through 1P+K then hold it, though, 'cause it's hella slow at 30f. It hits a lot 'cause people commit to strings. You can't commit to strings against characters who are crush heavy like Leifang or Gen Fu. That's why people get CH by Gen Fu's 3P. 'Cause they think they can use strings when they can't.

You don't have any real mixups to be scared of in close range. Her string mixups are garbage. Her OHs are hella telegraphed by her loud and obnoxious yell. It's not like Marie Rose who just walks up and grabs you with no animation or sound cues. Leifang flails her arms around and yells before doing her OHs. You can react to the yell and throw her. There's no Unshu mixup. Her low kick is 24f in string and reactable if you know what you're looking for. Her tracking options are only after 3P or two punches. Her throws are average at best.

I'm not saying Leifang's bad at close range, 'cause she's not. She's godlike. Especially against Ein. She has close range free. It's not even a question. It's just that you don't really have much to be scared of in terms of her offense whereas the other characters you listed at 4-6 actually have mixups. And their long range game isn't nearly as bad. You just block her until she does something dumb, 'cause Leifang's idea of a mixup is a tick throw. :v

 

[Tenryuga]

If it's legitimate whiff punishment, 1P+K isn't gonna do anything. She can't just cancel a whiffed attack's recovery into 1P+K. If she can 1P+K, she's already fully recovered. Ironically, 1P+K is the whiff punisher. It has a lot less range than people think. Her only options at mid range are to dash up and block, dash up and 1P+K outside your range to bait a whiff, hope you try to come in and K2K, or something really telegraphed like 6H+K (There's no reason for anyone to get hit by this unless it crushed a low kick or something 'cause it's 28f startup and insanely telegraphed). This is hella in Ein's favor. There's an entire list of Ein moves that are better at range than all of Leifang's moves. Plus, Ein combos often end with Leifang across the screen so it's not like it's rare to be at this range.

Free cancelling into crushes is also far from free. If you block her shoulder, that's like 100 damage punishment 'cause it's -15 back turned. Same for all her crushes. They're all around -12 except 1P+K which is only -5. You can literally whiff a move through 1P+K then hold it, though, 'cause it's hella slow at 30f. It hits a lot 'cause people commit to strings. You can't commit to strings against characters who are crush heavy like Leifang or Gen Fu. That's why people get CH by Gen Fu's 3P. 'Cause they think they can use strings when they can't.

You don't have any real mixups to be scared of in close range. Her string mixups are garbage. Her OHs are hella telegraphed by her loud and obnoxious yell. It's not like Marie Rose who just walks up and grabs you with no animation or sound cues. Leifang flails her arms around and yells before doing her OHs. You can react to the yell and throw her. There's no Unshu mixup. Her low kick is 24f in string and reactable if you know what you're looking for. Her tracking options are only after 3P or two punches. Her throws are average at best.

I'm not saying Leifang's bad at close range, 'cause she's not. She's godlike. Especially against Ein. She has close range free. It's not even a question. It's just that you don't really have much to be scared of in terms of her offense whereas the other characters you listed at 4-6 actually have mixups. And their long range game isn't nearly as bad. You just block her until she does something dumb, 'cause Leifang's idea of a mixup is a tick throw. :v

It's not really her offense that frustrates Ein, its the fact that she makes it difficult for him to start his moreso than some other characters. And I never said that free canceling into crushes were free just that you can do block strings with slight push back then input shoulder ram and still hit me out of my 3P and other mids whereas if it was other characters you would be the one getting counterblown. She can also crush some of his ranged mids as well though that occurence is rare.

I also believe Ein rapes Lei in range there is no argument there. However in an even MU Ein isn't having the annoyances he has in close range that he does vs Lei when it comes to starting an offense via counterhitting. If this MU is even then Ein is 6-4ing some of the characters I have listed as even which just isn't the case IMO.

No 7-3 or 3-7 match ups in this game at all? I heard this before but i never thought that most people would agree with that...

I'm reluctant to list MU's as 7-3 because of DOA online. A matchup can seem like 7-3 online solely due to things like input delay and such. Which is why I have Christie at 6-4 and Helena at 6-4 because Offline its not going to be nearly as hard counterpoking thier negatives or whiff punishing.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I agree, but I think of it as just having an extra delayable strike at the end of strings that's -15 backturn. I don't think there's much of a difference between Eliot delaying the last punch for two seconds and Leifang throwing out a 3P+K after getting blocked except that Leifang dies on block. Plus, a lot of Ein's range tools actually wreck her crushes. Like 46P actually beats crushes a lot of times when 3P won't because it's active for long enough that it hits her after the crush frames. Now, obviously that's pretty ballsy for an Ein to do, but it is an option.

EDIT: I mean when she's on offensive, of course. Her crushes are hella godlike for getting out of pressure.

EDIT: Yeah, I remembered wrong, it was 4P+K that was hella active. Anyways, I'll tell some Leifang anti-tech since I just gave bad tech earlier. :v Stuff that's active around frame 18 will beat both 3P+K and 66K from neutral frames. So if you block her 6H+K which is -3, you can use something like H+K or 7K which have active frames around the 21st frame and hit her if she tries 3P+K or 66K to crush your mids. If she blocks Ein 4P+K, you can do P+K. I mean, you probably can't get more damage than if you just blocked or sidestepped, but... Honestly, against Leifang, it's way better risk/reward if you pretend you're never at frame advantage unless you can actually throw punish. -3 to -7 is the perfect range where all her crush will beat standard pokes. Just block at frame advantage and watch them cringe as you punish a blocked 3P+K for 100 damage. Or just 2P.