SolidSonicTH
New Member
Just reassure me here: this ban wasn't spawned from FSD, was it? Because I've always liked you guys since you take the good with the bad when it comes to DoA.
DOA5 and Sexualization: Too Much?
- Thread starter werewolfgold
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werewolfgold
Well-Known Member
Depends on what you mean by "spawned from FSD". A tournament organizer who is also an FSD member proposed the ban after talking with a few others and Tom Lee at a tournament I believe. Some people here on FSD are for it, some are against it, some don't really care. I personally don't think a "ban" was the right way to go. It's now at kind of a "enforce that rule if you want" status.
But, the reasons why the ban was proposed, which costumes were banned, and the actual scope of the ban and who would even be affected by it have all been misrepresented a lot in various news coverage I find. Even though I don't think it was a great idea, the backlash that spawned from it was...yeah. WTF?
Part of it is that the word "ban" is a super loaded word to begin with.
David Gregg
Well-Known Member
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this. But if you play in a tournament you play by the holder's rules and I don't think that what he's asking is that unreasonable. There are communities who have heated debates on which characters should be banned from tournaments. Bans that can have a significant impact on outcomes. In light of that it makes the controversy around the outfits seem pretty minor. Not to mention it is hard to believe the people saying "I NEED outfit __ to compete" especially for characters that have 20+ other options. :/
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Argentus
Well-Known Member
Especially considering the outfits in question.
Really? You NEED bikini number 34?
Number 13
Well-Known Member
Your missing the big picture. This was never mainly about the desire to play fucking swimsuits that were rarely seen in competitive play to begin with. If the issue was that simple and small things would never have exploded as much as it did. It became an unnecessary ticking time bomb social/political journalist goldmine issue that never needed to be spawned in the first place as much as I wanted to be wrong about that.
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But people are acting like in Top 8s, the competitors in question only used sexually suggestive costumes. They didn't. The most sexually suggestive costumes I've seen in a Top 8 were Alpha "naked" and Christie's Halloween 2013 costume. Otherwise, I have never seen any of the top players use any of the banned costumes in a Top 8 match on stream at a tournament. That is why the suggestion of a ban is idiotic, especially with something cosmetic and minor that doesn't affect gameplay. DOA is a damn good fighting game with some attractive female fighters who happen to have some outlandish and sexy costumes. If people are really that taken aback by some virtual tits in a fighting game, then it's clear they're using any excuse to not give DOA a chance. Most of the costumes people complain about, you have to buy and I'm pretty sure those who are offended by virtual tits aren't going to purchase swimsuits.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter if it affects gameplay.
The idea, as I see it, is to help the games publicity. With all the hayashi lookitdaboobies marketing, its a good idea to try to offset that, encouraging people to use real costumes instead of the fetishwear for official tournaments.
You can say it doesn't matter well you want, but bottom line is it DOES, and I applaud them for at least TRYING to help fix doa's image that has been truly stained by 5's marketing and dlc.
Yeah previous games had a little fan service. But anyone who had ever seen or played the game knew it was actually a solid fighter. With 5 though its so bad that its hard to get people to even give it a second glance. So trying to make tournaments more "professional" looking is a noble intention, even if they aren't going about it the right way.
I will admit that the whole costume banning charade is not the way to go about it. Not to mention that most of the players from countless tournaments tap the confirm button to get the match over with to speed up the process. Majority of those banned outfits rarely appear, so it's quite silly regardless.
But at the same time..people made it seem as if tournaments was a everyday thing, people make it seem as if these costumes will guarantee players top 8/16 for viewers to see the outfit, People made it seem as if it placed a barrier over the store to not be able to purchase X outfits. You purchase outfits for your own console at home..when you are out there..you are not at home. Do not make yourself look even *more* stupid to rant about an outfit over there and to ask for a refund. If you knew the costume would be banned why even attempt to show up? do you believe you have the power to change the rules when you get there? don't kid yourself.
I understand where most of them are coming from but you cannot be serious here. Use your brain for once. The endless whining and garbage posts will make you look childish demanding a cosmetic feature over and over again. And since you are part of the community..."you" as a whole are affecting us to which some of us don't care what's happening and we just play the game. You basically threw some of us under the bus to which we don't really want to be involved in.
But at the same time..people made it seem as if tournaments was a everyday thing, people make it seem as if these costumes will guarantee players top 8/16 for viewers to see the outfit, People made it seem as if it placed a barrier over the store to not be able to purchase X outfits. You purchase outfits for your own console at home..when you are out there..you are not at home. Do not make yourself look even *more* stupid to rant about an outfit over there and to ask for a refund. If you knew the costume would be banned why even attempt to show up? do you believe you have the power to change the rules when you get there? don't kid yourself.
I understand where most of them are coming from but you cannot be serious here. Use your brain for once. The endless whining and garbage posts will make you look childish demanding a cosmetic feature over and over again. And since you are part of the community..."you" as a whole are affecting us to which some of us don't care what's happening and we just play the game. You basically threw some of us under the bus to which we don't really want to be involved in.
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Xhominid The Demon Within
Well-Known Member
Alright let me say something about this and I'll go since I gotta catch up on my gaming.
This is silly from every single side, there's no doubt about that but acting as if people are only laughing at those against the ban...is delusional at best. The EventHubs page didn't spawn with people hating the ban and Kotaku only put in perspective from what I've heard but don't act as if it's only one side that looks foolish.
It really doesn't help when you have people out and out saying that costumes kills peoples' identities and go and endless tirades about how certain characters is killing the series' legitimacy and then act as if banning the costumes will do something about it.
No seriously, how many times did I look upon someone saying "Why is the costumes banned? Is it because they give out unfair advantages?" or "DOA is always known for it's fanservice, why block that out?" or even the simple "This is why we can't take them seriously" when it just came up? I keep hearing how other people keep pointing out and saying that "But DOA's is more open so it's more of the issue" and you pretend that they are right...they are not. What you honestly want to say is that they know but don't care.
Why do you think the Tekken community looked 500 levels of stupid during their Lucky Chloe outburst? Or Shaheen outburst? Because when people act like a fool, everyone suffers and everyone acted like a fool here.
Whether it was one side that was for the ban, believing you are sticking to Tecmo Koei(you aren't) and then basically standing on high horses at the online community forgetting that they can easily be offline warriors the next day or the ones against the ban that really didn't do the best job with making a good discussion.
We all look like shit, there is no "I hope the Pro's are happy" or "I hope the Con's are happy." and I'm really getting tired of people pretending to cover their asses with "It wouldn't have happened if this side didn't bitch" because it still would have happened and we would have still looked like fucking fools.
If you cannot own your game, why the fuck should anyone take it seriously? And you aren't going to bother having civil discussions before making rules and believe that you are an elite club, then you are honestly the fool here. The community...is a community, offline and online. Those same players you lambast saying they don't go to tournies can easily become tourney warriors tomorrow(For the love of shit, wasn't XCaliburblades one of those online warriors? Or how about the massive influx of online warriors for UMvC3 in tournies recently? People aren't just gonna in appear in tourneys like that) so why pretend they don't exist till then?
Hell, I believe that most people aren't really mad about the costumes, but more of the fact we was excluded from the conversation in the first place.
I understand where you are coming from but we do not need to make the situation hotter than the sun. Next thing you know, corporate games will have a hint of entering the tournament world and lock DOA from being on any tournament..almost similar to the GTA ban in Australia and New Zealand. When you have a individual like Jyakotu throwing the word "sexism" around and putting out terrible invalid posts for article people to take in it gives out a extremely bad air vibe to the community and providing bad influence to people trying out the game or people that have no involvement to the costume ban to leave the community. Do we have to cater for "someone" needs all the time?
Let me tell you that Jyakotu was one of the individuals who called Rig ugly..simply because it was ugly for "him" and he wanted the model to be improved to cater for "his" needs. If not, he considers it sexism. That's "Rig"diculous..You just don't do that. That's bottom level soil IQ. Someone called me sexist here and I wonder why since I had a cosplay female Jecht as my avatar not too long ago and also for pete's sake, I have a girlfriend that I've been dating for over 4 months now.
I'm sure there are people here that are asking "If you are not involved in the costume ban then why are you posting in it?" It's because of the fact that players like myself who plays the game for the fun of it and communicating with other players..finds out that the game I enjoy is getting media attention for the wrong reasons and labeling the community for something that we didn't need. Those guys are over there going hamtaro for a costume while I'm over here at the other side of the bridge trying to help a player how to stagger escape a certain setup..but I can't because the player I'm helping keeps looking at the other bridge as if he had ADHD and cannot focus what I am giving him. Wrong unneeded attention that could of been settled within the community itself and not outside. To cut it short, it became serious to which it wasn't supposed to be serious. "Why must we continue to make it this serious?" at least to where it doesn't affect "everybody" here? - Don't get me wrong, I think the costume ban was quite dumb but you cannot be serious with people here. Like ask yourselves here...are you being serious?
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Xhominid The Demon Within
Well-Known Member
Okay, I can understand that but let me clarify some stuff:
First things first, I put up that description about how the Tekken players looked like fools about Lucky Chloe for a reason. Just as they have been bitching and complaining about the rise of the Female characters that are apparently too DOA-ish(I forget the term they use Korean Pop something GAC..) for Tekken, they just come off as being just as childish.
Why do you think I try my hardest to reign Argentus in whenever I get the chance? Especially in the topic I got banned at? Because it's the exact same shit people laugh at others for. The sexist thing is going too far, but it's the same way as saying Chun-Li is now more ridiculous and uncharacteristic from her SSF4 outfit to her alts in that game:
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2009/apr/12/costume-and-alt-outfit-colors-chun-li-street-fighter-4/
Or any one of the female Edenian women's alt outfits to their regular costumes in MK9.
As simply put...it's just a costume. I can make Jun Kazama in a bikini in TTT2, you think that kills off her badassness in anyway? I can make Hilde in an outfit that will make Ivy blush in SC5, you think that kills off her character in any way? So why should Mila be affected by fucking costumes? A huge chunk of the shit Kasumi has in her repretiore in the game doesn't match shit with her personality(same with everyone else past Christie, Tina and Lisa) so why should that only matter to them and this game?
Female Jecht!? WHERE!!!
Nah just kidding but back to matters I agree with that. But people have different taste and I'm not really a fan of Rig's looks either but others are so who the fuck cares(Mainly I see Rig like I see Jake Muller from RE6, generic user look). So yeah, calling someone sexist over something like that is stupid.
Alright here's where things get tricky:
This costume ban itself is where this is gaining bad attention from. I literally just watched a video on a good Youtuber who pretty much laid this on the floor: It feels like we are trying to appease to people and act like DOA has no identity and no set stone when that ship has sailed long ago. He also feels that this is only about the DLC and not really supporting it now but supported it back then. Now you can say he's wrong...but how he's thinking is how alot of other people is thinking. There was no set precedent or a seemingly noble cause it's basically trying to hide something that's already known. And by trying to jerk the curtain now just makes it extremely embarrassing.
There is no "If people acted less like a fool, none of this should have happened" or anything, it's just the ban itself. It also gives off the impression that I've said multitudes of times in that it feels like we don't own this game when we do. He states that if we want to continue, he won't pretend anything else and let it continue on but the words still echo in my head(that or the numerous fucking airplanes that flew over my house, thanks Nellis Air Force Base...).
If you want to help teach someone fundamentals and everything else, go ahead. If he's slacking off give him some time and come back because if he truly wants to be better, he will be back. Trying to pretend something isn't there is NOT NOR EVER going to fix the situation. The sooner we finally figure that out, the better the community will be and can finally walk on it's own 2 feet.
Xhominid The Demon Within
Well-Known Member
It was this one I had:
That...isn't your girlfriend right...
Because this would be awkward.
EDIT: Mean that in the way of letting me see the photo
Xhominid The Demon Within
Well-Known Member
ooh nice. Not all that partial on Jecht before, but Dissidia did change my stance on him a bit.
Mila
New Member
This is an interesting issue, because while I can understand the ban, I don't quite support it.
What we want is for DOA to become more widely accepted.
This will not happen for as long as sexuality plays a big role in DOA.
You are playing a game which has engines specifically built with breasts and ass in mind.
Think about that.
It would counterintuitive to not play this up.
THIS being said, there can be 'hot', 'sexy' etc outfits that aren't outright pandering and ridiculous looking.
GG TN, you stirred the hornets nest. We just want you to stop being lazy and pandering to bottomfeeder otaku.
What we want is for DOA to become more widely accepted.
This will not happen for as long as sexuality plays a big role in DOA.
You are playing a game which has engines specifically built with breasts and ass in mind.
Think about that.
It would counterintuitive to not play this up.
THIS being said, there can be 'hot', 'sexy' etc outfits that aren't outright pandering and ridiculous looking.
GG TN, you stirred the hornets nest. We just want you to stop being lazy and pandering to bottomfeeder otaku.
I've been playing DOA games right from the beginning, I buy them all, I buy all the DLC, I tell people they're actually good games if I think there's a remote chance of them giving up on the whole boob jokes meme. This is the first time I've ever signed up to a fighting game forum though. Reason? This whole ban thing and the wave of negative PR and media posturing it dragged along with it. Please don't ever go into politics, whoever came up with it, it's a spotlight nobody wanted or needed and came off as incredibly naive.
If getting rid of the costumes was actually desirable in tournaments, you could have just provided tournament systems without the DLC on them and a fresh save. The arbitrary and selective nature of the ban is one of the most ridiculous parts.
As for Team Ninjas latest costume efforts, honestly some of them I could live without - I think we have more than enough bikinis now and they're starting to smack of laziness as much as anything else. Easy to design a costume when you're only covering a few square inches of skin, or creating a themed set which is copypasta between characters.
If getting rid of the costumes was actually desirable in tournaments, you could have just provided tournament systems without the DLC on them and a fresh save. The arbitrary and selective nature of the ban is one of the most ridiculous parts.
As for Team Ninjas latest costume efforts, honestly some of them I could live without - I think we have more than enough bikinis now and they're starting to smack of laziness as much as anything else. Easy to design a costume when you're only covering a few square inches of skin, or creating a themed set which is copypasta between characters.
Xhominid The Demon Within
Well-Known Member
That's not why we are seen as laughingstocks now. This happens to all anime games as well, so why should we pretend that it's not what it is and believe that it's the only problem the series has? So many times have I seen people tell me that they don't like the Hold system and believe it stands against everything they learned about fighting games far more than simple costumes or boobs and ass is the reason they don't show 99/100 times.
There is a difference between making fun and serious reasons, this is not a serious reason. People poke fun at Blazblue and still take it seriously on it's own merits so why continue to act like that this is that serious of an issue?
Komatose
Member
I really don't understand what all the fuss is about... Can someone explain? Is it the bikinis and swimsuits or the size of the boobs? Or both? Either way, if they're not naked, why is this even a problem? Lol. I really don't see a problem. At all. But then again I am one of if not the most open-minded and accepting person I know so...
werewolfgold
Well-Known Member
Don't tempt TN. We already have costumes with only suspenders and leis covering up the boobs. lol
But, the real answer is kind of complicated. It's about outside perception of the game. People think of DOA as only a game for lonely otakus, complete with waifu dolls that they can fawn over and dress up in bikinis and fetish outfits. There's more about outside perception in the opening post of this thread. While pretty women has been part of the series from the start, it's gotten to the point where barely anybody even knows that DOA is a fighting game. Like, seriously. Some people think that DOA is some volleyball dating sim with ridiculous boob physics. Some people, even throughout this "debacle" are saying things like "if you take away the skimpy outfits, then there's no reason to play DOA."
That's not true. Since we all know it's not, and TN currently may not be doing enough to market things that don't involve boobs, some people are trying to take measures to give the other parts of the game some publicity. It's kind of like do you want a fighting game with a side of cheesecake or cheesecake with a side of fighting game?
People on the outside saw the word "ban" and flew off the rails talking about censorship, and feminazis, and SJWs, and puritanism, and Mortal Kombat and gore WHEN THAT IS NOWHERE NEAR THE POINT OF WHY THIS HAPPENED. Sexiness in itself is fine. But for right now, we're up to our ears in sexy and naughty and dokidoki, etc. So, the "hardcore community" is trying to get people to pay attention to the actual gameplay for a sec.
Now, some people find that they don't like the gameplay. And that's fine. But, we should at least be altering the perception of DOA enough to get people who like other fighting games to try it out. Is this like entrapment or false advertising? I don't quite think so. We're not actually removing anything from the game.
Now, I personally think that a "ban" wasn't the way to go. And I've seen some comments like "I understand what you're trying with this, but there's no point if Team Ninja doesn't actually want to change the perception of the game". I kind of agree with that. It has to start with them.