Dead or Alive 6 (PC)

[NightAntilli]

I think retweaking the game so that meter seems useful is the first step to turning this game into SFV... I'm not saying it wouldn't work... I'm saying it's going to seem so arbitrary and forced because theres nothing wrong with they way the game works now...

I wouldn't go as far as to say that xD But... There are definitely other things that require a higher priority in fixing before we start thinking about introducing a meter. Unless of course the meter is directly designed to fix these things, but there is nothing in the trailer that suggests this. As of right now, the meter seems to be adding more to the guessing game, rather than reducing it.

If there's one game that does a meter quite well, it's For Honor. The meter represents stamina, which limits the ability to spam attacks and/or dodging. I don't necessarily dislike the idea of metered holds, but there is no way I would stand for a 2-point hold system. And I don't think you need a meter to fix the hold system.

 

[Lulu]

If there's one game that does a meter quite well, it's For Honor. The meter represents stamina, which limits the ability to spam attacks and/or dodging.

I haven't played for honor... but I have played a few other games where the "...which limits the ability to spam attacks and/or dodging." Argument has been used as an indicator of the game's depth.

I should warn you that you probably don't want to read this next part... so.... you may opt to skip it.

Spoiler

Really whats actually happening is the developers have a bunch of lame unimaginative enemies with brain dead AI that would be entirely way to easy to exploit... so to stop that from happening... an equally lame and unimaginative solution is implemented in the form of a Stamina bar to stop you from going ham on them.... in short... for some studios thats the best solution they can implement but it should be noted that if the thought process is "It would be broken if it wasn't there in the game. " then thats the first indicator that the game isn't all that deep... and even worse... it nay not be all that challenging either because you have this system put in place thats constantly stopping the player even if they are capable of doing more.

Really what they're are suppose to be doing expanding the player's options... not limiting them.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that xD But...

I would... if the issue is people keep spamming holds then I always ask... "Why aren't you throwing them ?" The only way this would be problem is if lag is preventing people from properly punishing these things the same way lag prevents people from punishing jumping in SFV... but in that case the problem isn't in the game's design... its with its execution... better netcode could help alleviate that problem but ultimately Fighting Games will always be better offline.

My issue with meter in all games is that it might lead to Situations where having it gives an obvious advantage that just makes the fights lobsided... like God Of War when Krae-Krae goes into rage mode or whatever... it would make the game less skill based because if the match is close enough then Meter can ultimately be the deciding factor... reducing the chances of a comeback if you don't have it and cheapening the comeback if you do.... I suppose it also may make comebacks seem more Epic if someone without meter pulls it off but thats two downsides versus one upside. Irresponsible game design if you ask me.

I suppose managing meter is a skill in its own right but its the sort of thing that makes more sense in MOBA's and RTS's.

 

[NightAntilli]

I haven't played for honor... but I have played a few other games where the "...which limits the ability to spam attacks and/or dodging." Argument has been used as an indicator of the game's depth.

Well... In For Honor it goes further than that. You generally cannot get knocked down while you have stamina (although some characters can do it still due to their own specific moves). When you run out of stamina, you cannot sprint, you cannot roll, your attacks become reeeeeaaaally sloooooooow, if you're grabbed you fall down, if you're parried you fall down. So it goes further than stopping attacks. If your opponent blocks you with good timing, you lose slightly more stamina. Additionally, getting parried eats up your stamina really quickly, and parrying the opponent lets it regenerate a bit. Cancelling an attack does not reduce the amount of stamina used, so feinting has a cost. Basically, a huge part of the game revolves around it, rather than it being tacked on.

I should warn you that you probably don't want to read this next part... so.... you may opt to skip it.

I did read it, and... I don't know what you were worried about. Seems like a normal comment to me.

I would... if the issue is people keep spamming holds then I always ask... "Why aren't you throwing them ?"

Completely valid comment.

I suppose managing meter is a skill in its own right but its the sort of thing that makes more sense in MOBA's and RTS's.

Generally, you're right, but it depends on how it's implemented. Not that I would trust Team Ninja to implement correctly, to be quite honest...

 

[Lulu]

Well... In For Honor it goes further than that. You generally cannot get knocked down while you have stamina (although some characters can do it still due to their own specific moves). When you run out of stamina, you cannot sprint, you cannot roll, your attacks become reeeeeaaaally sloooooooow, if you're grabbed you fall down, if you're parried you fall down. So it goes further than stopping attacks. If your opponent blocks you with good timing, you lose slightly more stamina. Additionally, getting parried eats up your stamina really quickly, and parrying the opponent lets it regenerate a bit. Cancelling an attack does not reduce the amount of stamina used, so feinting has a cost. Basically, a huge part of the game revolves around it, rather than it being tacked on.

Wow... thats sounds extremely boring and mildly frustrating... okay I'm curious about something. Where is the stamina bar placed in the HUD ?

I did read it, and... I don't know what you were worried about. Seems like a normal comment to me

LoL... then maybe you're as twisted as I am because when I say that everywhere people lose their shit go on the ultra defensive. As if I said their mom's were ugly or something.

Generally, you're right, but it depends on how it's implemented. Not that I would trust Team Ninja to implement correctly, to be quite honest...

To me it depends on "IF" its implemented... the how is irrelevant 99% of the time.... its just like Cancer. Theres no good type of cancer... its generally always bad.

Think about Marvel. vs. Capcom. The game is overly dependent on meter creating a game of constant supers & lackluster combos which DOA is pretty much doing. Meter is great but it is becoming a replacement for the game itself as the primary way to achieve damage. The meter is being built automatically on both sides so the strategy for using it is minimal. Right now it seems arbitrary & forced because it's likely going to be impossible to secure a win without the meter being used someway. Imagine winning in MvC without a super. Mechanics introduced are great - it really could solve almost all the problems DOA suffers but they need to balance the meter system in relation to the triangle system. The worst possible mistake would be to throw a broken meter system on top of a broken game. By having a meter system work in relation to the triangle system newcomers will have an easier adjustment in how the game is meant to be played

I have UMVC3 But I never played so I have no clue what you're talking about... as for the triangle system... it works just fine... there's no way to balance the triangle system with Meter... at best you're just going wind up with a 50/50 Compromise... which I guess is infact "Balanced". Its still going come across as forced because their taking an already working system and fusing it with an unproven formula that makes the game more complicated without increasing its depth....

 

[NightAntilli]

Wow... thats sounds extremely boring and mildly frustrating... okay I'm curious about something. Where is the stamina bar placed in the HUD ?

It hovers just above your character and your opponent's character. Take a look at these 1v1 matches. It's the green bars under the white health bar. As you can see, the stamina doesn't really kill the fight, unless you don't know what you're doing. And if you're wondering why the opponent character suddenly dies without being hit, the character being used has bleed damage, which does gradual damage over time;

 

[ryu_highabusa]

Is the original DOA really such a great game?

It's kind of rough to go back to but it's a lot of fun and a much more honest game than what have now. That's what I love about it. 100% recommend an arcade stick if you ever try it out - DOA wasn't really pad friendly for another five years. A bunch of moves today are still using the same exact mocapped animations from 96.

I think retweaking the game so that meter seems useful is the first step to turning this game into SFV...

Okay but then why bother having a meter if it's going to be useless? Might as well go back to DOA5 "Power Blow" rules and ditch the meter. On the contrary, I think meter could be the best thing to ever happen to DOA. I really want to see how it changes the meta. That's why I'm pushing for a hold system that uses meter so much. I don't think that should be the only change but I think it's a great start. I won't ramble about that anymore in this thread though. Meter has so much potential to add a breath of fresh air to this game. Right now it's just there... but it has potential! I'm excited to see what they do with it in the end.

The meter rules are going to be completely different at EVO - I'm almost certain. The E3 build was so early the meter was just being implemented to test if it even worked and if elements x, y, or z effect meter status. In addition, TN needed to demo all the new stuff quickly during the very short press demos, who weren't the best players. So, I'm excited to see how they've changed the meter mechanics for their actual intended audience who play the game.

I really hope everyone at EVO gets to talk to Shimbori and get into his head about what the team's thought process is with adding the meter. I hate the basic ass English interviews that are just basic FAQs. What's their vision for the meter? Their hopes for it? It is a drastic departure for the series so I'm curious about this stuff. How it turns out is going to be another story as well so I hope you all have some good feedback for him. I personally don't have a suggestion for the exact balance of the meter so I leave it up to people a bit more informed on that topic than I.

Advancing Guard for DOA? For real tho

To me that just looks like the DOA1 parry with more push-back and a different animation. I want the parry back personally but they can change the anim and add some VFX.

 

[Lulu]

It hovers just above your character and your opponent's character.

FINALLY SOMEBODY GETS IT RIGHT !!!

Dude... I can't tell you how long I've waited for someone get the HUD right...

As you can see, the stamina doesn't really kill the fight, unless you don't know what you're doing.

Compared to Fighting Games this feels like a huge step back...

Okay but then why bother having a meter if it's going to be useless?

Exactly... its unnecessary. And changing the game so that forces it to become necessary is what bothers me.

Might as well go back to DOA5 "Power Blow" rules and ditch the meter.

If it aint broke, don't fix it...

That's why I'm pushing for a hold system that uses meter so much.

Perhaps if the meter was being used to address 5LR's problems then I'd be on board... using it on something that works just fine without it is something else all together.

Meter has so much potential to add a breath of fresh air to this game. Right now it's just there... but it has potential! I'm excited to see what they do with it in the en

Meter is just a resource that determines what you can or can't do it... I personally do not find limitations refreshing...

I really hope everyone at EVO gets to talk to Shimbori and get into his head about what the team's thought process is with adding the meter. I hate the basic ass English interviews that are just basic FAQs.

If I had the opportunity to to meet with Shimbori I'd challenge him to a few rounds of Gwent... what better way to learn how someone thinks than with a Practical Exercise.

 

[NightAntilli]

Compared to Fighting Games this feels like a huge step back...

Well, For Honor is a much much slower fighting game than any other out there. But it is a very good one. It's basically the first fighting game ever that works like this. No matter what it looks like, it is first and foremost a fighting game.

Since it's 3rd person from behind the character rather than a side-view, the mechanics are completely different. You can block either top, left or right, and attacks can come from any of those three directions. There's light and heavy attacks which vary in speed and damage. Different characters have different strings. All characters can dodge, but only assassins have deflect, which... resembles mostly a Sabaki that doesn't stun the opponent nor is an attack by itself, but has multiple options from it.
You have a grab, and characters have specific moves. Some have kicks, or punches, some have unblockables, some have specifically stamina-draining moves that use environmental damage.

It's hard to understand how fun it is until you try it. You should try it sometime when there's a free weekend. They do it multiple times a year.

 

[Lulu]

Well, For Honor is a much much slower fighting game than any other out there. But it is a very good one. It's basically the first fighting game ever that works like this. No matter what it looks like, it is first and foremost a fighting game.

Thats more than I can say for Absolver...

It's hard to understand how fun it is until you try it. You should try it sometime when there's a free weekend. They do it multiple times a year.

And deal with Ubisoft ? No thank you... I'm not getting burned by them again.

 

[NightAntilli]

And deal with Ubisoft ? No thank you... I'm not getting burned by them again.

What happened with you and Ubisoft? xD I think they have been quite great lately. Especially compared to EA.

 

[ryu_highabusa]

If it aint broke, don't fix it...

They are broken though - PBs are equally pointless and no one really bothers to go for them.

 

[Cadaveri]

What happened with you and Ubisoft? xD I think they have been quite great lately. Especially compared to EA.

Ubisoft is right there with EA, though granted EA is the greater evil.

 

[NightAntilli]

Ubisoft is right there with EA, though granted EA is the greater evil.

Can't agree with that, seeing how they handled Rainbow Six Siege and For Honor.

 

[Cadaveri]

Can't agree with that, seeing how they handled Rainbow Six Siege and For Honor.

Visual downgrades from advertised trailers, DRM bullshit, framerate problems, terrible PC ports.

Granted I haven't touched the company's games in few years

 

[NightAntilli]

Visual downgrades from advertised trailers, DRM bullshit, framerate problems, terrible PC ports.

Granted I haven't touched the company's games in few years

Don't disagree with that either. But at least they seem to be learning their lesson and are constantly improving, unlike EA.

I have had no problem with Ubisoft for the last year. One of the biggest differences, is in the way the games are handled. Look at Star Wars Battlefront... EA got a backlash, fixes a few things, abandons the old game, and releases a second version with the same or even worse problems. Look at Mass Effect Andromeda. A few patches, then immediately shelved and the studio disbanded.

Ubisoft at least keeps updating the game until it can be considered a good game, without dropping it outright. They did it with Rainbow Six Siege, they did it with The Division, and they did it with For Honor. And I can't say that their games run crappy anymore on PC. Look how well Far Cry 5 runs on PC... It is in part due to them dropping nVidia GameWorks, but that's a whole other discussion.

 

[LethalKasumi]

I'm hoping for lobbies like DOA4/DOAOL. Wouldn't that be cool?

 

[delSai]

I'm hoping for lobbies like DOA4/DOAOL. Wouldn't that be cool?

How did those games do lobbies?

 

[grap3fruitman]

I'm hoping for lobbies like DOA4/DOAOL. Wouldn't that be cool?

Why do people just want to sit in stupid pointless lobbies? Go get VRChat for that. I'd like to actually play DOA when I'm online. Not stare at a text lobby or stare at a stupid anime avatar lobby. I want to actually be able to to play some matches. Now we'll have 12 people with consoles in a lobby but instead of 12 people playing each other we're waiting for the one machine to free up for some reason like in the arcade days. Then, when you finally come up in the queue, the host just backs out and kicks you. So now I have to go sit and wait for another half hour in another lobby without ever having gotten to play. I don't want more interruptions that keep me from actual matches.

 

[NewWestFan]

Why do people just want to sit in stupid pointless lobbies? Go get VRChat for that. I'd like to actually play DOA when I'm online. Not stare at a text lobby or stare at a stupid anime avatar lobby. I want to actually be able to to play some matches. Now we'll have 12 people with consoles in a lobby but instead of 12 people playing each other we're waiting for the one machine to free up for some reason like in the arcade days. Then, when you finally come up in the queue, the host just backs out and kicks you. So now I have to go sit and wait for another half hour in another lobby without ever having gotten to play. I don't want more interruptions that keep me from actual matches.

Could combine it with the way that Anime fighters like BBxTag do theirs so that it's a big room with multiple machines for matches and DOA's voice chat so everyone can talk while playing independent matches, and even set it up so that tournament mode works like RL events where you have to go to your designated machine for your match with a creatively done in-world pool/matchup chart.

 

[LethalKasumi]

Why do people just want to sit in stupid pointless lobbies? Go get VRChat for that. I'd like to actually play DOA when I'm online. Not stare at a text lobby or stare at a stupid anime avatar lobby. I want to actually be able to to play some matches. Now we'll have 12 people with consoles in a lobby but instead of 12 people playing each other we're waiting for the one machine to free up for some reason like in the arcade days. Then, when you finally come up in the queue, the host just backs out and kicks you. So now I have to go sit and wait for another half hour in another lobby without ever having gotten to play. I don't want more interruptions that keep me from actual matches.

That's cute but that's why everyone can have different opinions, you don't want that? Cool.