DOA5LR Ayane Newbie
- Thread starter Makeshift
- Start date
Makeshift
New Member
@iHajinShinobi So I've worked hard on my juggling like you recommended (although I do mess up 2 of the juggles in the below videos). I've been consistently doing a lot more damage: somehow went on a 6 match streak against some weaker ratings and took a match off an S-(!).
However, some games go like below, any help would be most appreciated!!!
However, some games go like below, any help would be most appreciated!!!
Makeshift
New Member
The first video is probably roughly where my play is at, the second one was laggy (and I find the heavyweight characters much harder to launch/juggle correctly). Either way, seem to be losing a lot so would appreciate any input please from the Ayane pros about exactly what I should work on next 
I'll be sure to look these over and critique tomorrow or Monday (likely tomorrow though), busy today since it's 4th of July.
Nice, I see you've worked the juggles I've suggested into your play some more, that's good. Keep working on them, although the BTPP4PP7K juggles were dropping on Bayman since he is a super heavyweight. What this means is that he needs to actually be launched a bit higher for the juggle to connect. Only your front turn stance juggles will connect on a super heavy weight at the lowest launch height (stun > 4P for example is a low launch height). You can also just do a 4P~K on super heavyweights at low launch heights as well to get damage.
The next bit I want to bring up is some of the neutral game, mostly at a range. I saw you using 3H+K at times, especially in the Jacky match up, that's good. For your range fights, I want you to use and get comfortable with the following five moves;
- 3P - i15 frame mid punch and has two string follow ups, 3PP is mid/mid P, 3PK is mid/low K. You can try to poke while further away from the opponent with this, or use it to whiff punish, or to control some space in front of you.
- 3H+K - i19 frame long range tracking mid kick. Safe at -3, allows you to poke further away from the opponent and also lets you control space once you are comfortable with it.
- 5K - Fast i12 frames, tracking high kick, very good button to not let people simply run in on you for free and it has follow ups with KK/KKK/KK2K. Leaves you back turned, so even if you whiff it at range a bit properly, you can back away with 44 or BT8P.
- 3K - i15 frame mid kick with string follow ups (3KK/3KKK/3KKKK/3KKK2K). This is another move you can use the same applications of 3P for.
- 2P - Fast i12 frames, a very good crouching low and low hitting move. Fast short range poke, forces the opponent to crouch and block low. +0 on neutral hit. On counter hit it's +4 and also pushes them back, creating spacing for you.
I suggest these five because they are all good moves to help you learn how to fight more safely during the range game (there are plenty of other moves as well, but I don't want to dump to much on you at once). Try these out and see how they work out for you. Of course you are always more than welcome to try out other things you want to try as well and see how they work out.
This is also to prevent you from doing things like run up drill kick, which is a very bad idea because drill kick (running K, 236K) is very punishable on block and whiff. Drill kick is best used as whiff punishment.
A few suggestions while up close; if you're going to attempt to open the opponent up on block with strings occasionally--in front turned stance, you have;
- PP6K2K
- PP6PK
- PPKK
Now, obviously you can free cancel any of these to mix things up, you don't necessarily want to complete your strings all the time on a blocking opponent.
This is something I've written up last year as a starting point for people in need of an idea of what Ayane can/should do to open up a blocking opponent.
Move A followed by a > implies that is the next option/follow up to something beforehard. Example: P > BT8P.
Anything with a [ ] means to hold down that input/command.
The next bit I want to bring up is some of the neutral game, mostly at a range. I saw you using 3H+K at times, especially in the Jacky match up, that's good. For your range fights, I want you to use and get comfortable with the following five moves;
- 3P - i15 frame mid punch and has two string follow ups, 3PP is mid/mid P, 3PK is mid/low K. You can try to poke while further away from the opponent with this, or use it to whiff punish, or to control some space in front of you.
- 3H+K - i19 frame long range tracking mid kick. Safe at -3, allows you to poke further away from the opponent and also lets you control space once you are comfortable with it.
- 5K - Fast i12 frames, tracking high kick, very good button to not let people simply run in on you for free and it has follow ups with KK/KKK/KK2K. Leaves you back turned, so even if you whiff it at range a bit properly, you can back away with 44 or BT8P.
- 3K - i15 frame mid kick with string follow ups (3KK/3KKK/3KKKK/3KKK2K). This is another move you can use the same applications of 3P for.
- 2P - Fast i12 frames, a very good crouching low and low hitting move. Fast short range poke, forces the opponent to crouch and block low. +0 on neutral hit. On counter hit it's +4 and also pushes them back, creating spacing for you.
I suggest these five because they are all good moves to help you learn how to fight more safely during the range game (there are plenty of other moves as well, but I don't want to dump to much on you at once). Try these out and see how they work out for you. Of course you are always more than welcome to try out other things you want to try as well and see how they work out.
This is also to prevent you from doing things like run up drill kick, which is a very bad idea because drill kick (running K, 236K) is very punishable on block and whiff. Drill kick is best used as whiff punishment.
A few suggestions while up close; if you're going to attempt to open the opponent up on block with strings occasionally--in front turned stance, you have;
- PP6K2K
- PP6PK
- PPKK
Now, obviously you can free cancel any of these to mix things up, you don't necessarily want to complete your strings all the time on a blocking opponent.
This is something I've written up last year as a starting point for people in need of an idea of what Ayane can/should do to open up a blocking opponent.
Move A followed by a > implies that is the next option/follow up to something beforehard. Example: P > BT8P.
Anything with a [ ] means to hold down that input/command.
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KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
Hey Makeshift, I've compared the videos you posted in this thread and the matches we've had today and I can tell that you have definitely improved. I would like to point out some of your (bad) habits though, which I noticed in the matches we've had today:
- Overrelying on PPP4. This is not really a good string to throw out on block since it can give me a BT combo if you don't react fast enough. I could do Alpha's optimized BT combo and Rig's optimized BT combo plenty of times, for example.
- Using 6PP on a guarding opponent. I've noticed this tendency with a lot of online Ayane players, and you tend do that as well. 6PP is unsafe on block and it gives me a free throw punish every time.
- Doing 4P too often. Again, I don't have to respect this on block. However, you've crushed some of my high strikes pretty well with this move, so that's a good thing.
- Doing 236K to rush me down. It's unsafe and gives me a free low throw punish on block.
Unfortunately I can't really help you with the Ayane-specific tech and setups since I only play her at a basic level. I know what's unsafe of her though and what her strings are. Nevertheless, I'm sure you'll improve in no time with others' help, especially with HajinShinobi's advice since he is a very proficient Ayane player. My tip for now is: Keep going and keep practicing!
- Overrelying on PPP4. This is not really a good string to throw out on block since it can give me a BT combo if you don't react fast enough. I could do Alpha's optimized BT combo and Rig's optimized BT combo plenty of times, for example.
- Using 6PP on a guarding opponent. I've noticed this tendency with a lot of online Ayane players, and you tend do that as well. 6PP is unsafe on block and it gives me a free throw punish every time.
- Doing 4P too often. Again, I don't have to respect this on block. However, you've crushed some of my high strikes pretty well with this move, so that's a good thing.
- Doing 236K to rush me down. It's unsafe and gives me a free low throw punish on block.
Unfortunately I can't really help you with the Ayane-specific tech and setups since I only play her at a basic level. I know what's unsafe of her though and what her strings are. Nevertheless, I'm sure you'll improve in no time with others' help, especially with HajinShinobi's advice since he is a very proficient Ayane player. My tip for now is: Keep going and keep practicing!
Makeshift
New Member
I think PPP4 is a command input error of trying to P4P a lot of the time (especially when it's at medium range). I need to tighten it up though for sure.
Played a few interesting matches tonight @iHajinShinobi , wonder if you could take a look at this one when you get a moment. From my perspective I feel relatively comfortable with 3H+K, 3P and 2P moves, 5K seems best suited for R1F distance and to stop people bum rushing you. Probably need to work on using 3K more (in place of 3P to increase unpredictability right?). I haven't worked any of the Oki stuff you mentioned in yet, was waiting to see if I could control space and improve my movement a bit first (I always feel so static compared to your vids).
I am using 44/66 instead of 8P for integrated movement as I find that on the 8P that even if I push at what feels the exact same time, a P comes out (it feels like I have to make an effort to push 8 before P and this delays things). Is this a bad habit I should work out of my system now or is it ok to keep it?
I flopped the round straight after vs @KING JAIMY though and went back to accidentally PPP4 and drill kicking once or twice. Even then, I think I did better than the last time we played.
Edit: Is there a better way to get the replays onto youtube off the xbox other than using a phone/tablet to record?
Played a few interesting matches tonight @iHajinShinobi , wonder if you could take a look at this one when you get a moment. From my perspective I feel relatively comfortable with 3H+K, 3P and 2P moves, 5K seems best suited for R1F distance and to stop people bum rushing you. Probably need to work on using 3K more (in place of 3P to increase unpredictability right?). I haven't worked any of the Oki stuff you mentioned in yet, was waiting to see if I could control space and improve my movement a bit first (I always feel so static compared to your vids).
I am using 44/66 instead of 8P for integrated movement as I find that on the 8P that even if I push at what feels the exact same time, a P comes out (it feels like I have to make an effort to push 8 before P and this delays things). Is this a bad habit I should work out of my system now or is it ok to keep it?
I flopped the round straight after vs @KING JAIMY though and went back to accidentally PPP4 and drill kicking once or twice
. Even then, I think I did better than the last time we played.Edit: Is there a better way to get the replays onto youtube off the xbox other than using a phone/tablet to record?
KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
Hey Makeshift, you played well man! I'll leave the Ayane feedback up to Hajin, but you can use these steps to upload your videos in HD to YouTube on Xbox One:I think PPP4 is a command input error of trying to P4P a lot of the time (especially when it's at medium range). I need to tighten it up though for sure.
Played a few interesting matches tonight @iHajinShinobi , wonder if you could take a look at this one when you get a moment. From my perspective I feel relatively comfortable with 3H+K, 3P and 2P moves, 5K seems best suited for R1F distance and to stop people bum rushing you. Probably need to work on using 3K more (in place of 3P to increase unpredictability right?). I haven't worked any of the Oki stuff you mentioned in yet, was waiting to see if I could control space and improve my movement a bit first (I always feel so static compared to your vids).
I am using 44/66 instead of 8P for integrated movement as I find that on the 8P that even if I push at what feels the exact same time, a P comes out (it feels like I have to make an effort to push 8 before P and this delays things). Is this a bad habit I should work out of my system now or is it ok to keep it?
I flopped the round straight after vs @KING JAIMY though and went back to accidentally PPP4 and drill kicking once or twice
Edit: Is there a better way to get the replays onto youtube off the xbox other than using a phone/tablet to record?
1. Snap an App and open the Game DVR.
2. Choose 'Start New Clip' and let the desired DOA replay play in the background.
3. Stop recording once you're finished and save your clip.
4. Go to Upload Studio and open your clip.
5. Edit your clip if necessary and upload your clip to 'Upload'.
6. Open the YouTube App.
7. Upload the video you have just shared to 'Upload' using the YouTube app.
@Makeshift it looks like you're still getting the hang of the buttons I've suggested, 3H+K seems like your best button so far. Good usage of 2P in tight spots to have Kasumi back off and good use of 3P at a distance. 5K I think you'll get used to it at some point (it's only one match so it won't tell the whole story of progression).
I think you can try to add 6P/6PK to your range game as options (if you so choose). 6P serves as a multi-tude tool during footsies, it can be a poke, counter poke, and a move to control some space since it has the mid kick follow up. 6PK is also always distance at -5 to -6 if it is blocked at range, cannot be punished. 6P can also be a way to move forward at further distances because of the forward spin from 6P3.
You can also try out the BT3K low string as well. Great move, low hitting string, forces people to block low and forces them to do something about it. BT3K can be a poke, BT3 (forward spin from BT stance) can be a good way to move forward or just move around with the threat of a low). Good way to playing zoning and control some space. Another about the BT3K string is that if the first one hits, the opponent is put into a must-hold situation. Meaning if you commit to the string, they have to hold it or they take the full string. The second and third hit of BT3KKK is a natural combo, so if the second connects then the third (which is a mid kick) is guaranteed.
But even if you don't commit after BT3K, it's still a mix up because they have to guess. If they low hold then you can punish them with BT 2T for free damage.
That's pretty much all I will suggest for now. Keep getting comfortable and improving your range game until you feel you want to move onto something new.
I think you can try to add 6P/6PK to your range game as options (if you so choose). 6P serves as a multi-tude tool during footsies, it can be a poke, counter poke, and a move to control some space since it has the mid kick follow up. 6PK is also always distance at -5 to -6 if it is blocked at range, cannot be punished. 6P can also be a way to move forward at further distances because of the forward spin from 6P3.
You can also try out the BT3K low string as well. Great move, low hitting string, forces people to block low and forces them to do something about it. BT3K can be a poke, BT3 (forward spin from BT stance) can be a good way to move forward or just move around with the threat of a low). Good way to playing zoning and control some space. Another about the BT3K string is that if the first one hits, the opponent is put into a must-hold situation. Meaning if you commit to the string, they have to hold it or they take the full string. The second and third hit of BT3KKK is a natural combo, so if the second connects then the third (which is a mid kick) is guaranteed.
But even if you don't commit after BT3K, it's still a mix up because they have to guess. If they low hold then you can punish them with BT 2T for free damage.
That's pretty much all I will suggest for now. Keep getting comfortable and improving your range game until you feel you want to move onto something new.
Makeshift
New Member
Thanks Hajin, will do.
Any thoughts re "I am using 44/66 instead of 8P for integrated movement as I find that on the 8P that even if I push at what feels the exact same time, a P comes out (it feels like I have to make an effort to push 8 before P and this delays things). Is this a bad habit I should work out of my system now or is it ok to keep it?"
And when should I use 3P vs 3K?
Any thoughts re "I am using 44/66 instead of 8P for integrated movement as I find that on the 8P that even if I push at what feels the exact same time, a P comes out (it feels like I have to make an effort to push 8 before P and this delays things). Is this a bad habit I should work out of my system now or is it ok to keep it?"
And when should I use 3P vs 3K?
Using 8P/BT8P or 44 is a preference, either is fine.
3P has more range than 3K, so it's wise to learn when to use each depending on space also to change your mid level strikes at a distance.
3P has more range than 3K, so it's wise to learn when to use each depending on space also to change your mid level strikes at a distance.
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Makeshift
New Member
Been working on my neutral game and winning more against lower ranked players but still getting smashed in by the better ones (a lot). I seem to have a few issues: knowing when I can stop blocking and then to stop using 4P as much.
Played a few sets with King Jaimy earlier who knocked me around a bit. I have uploaded in new HD so should be easier to see Hajin. Is my range game still in a bad way? What should I start working on next?
There was a bit of lag in last game but I think it affected KJ's decisions more than mine (like my second match ever vs Raidou so had no idea what he was going to do anyway).
I also wondered if you had any plans/approaches for Ayane vs Hayate? I play the MU a fair bit and whilst don't seem to do that badly but a good Hayate feels unstoppable.
Played a few sets with King Jaimy earlier who knocked me around a bit. I have uploaded in new HD so should be easier to see Hajin. Is my range game still in a bad way? What should I start working on next?
There was a bit of lag in last game but I think it affected KJ's decisions more than mine (like my second match ever vs Raidou so had no idea what he was going to do anyway).
I also wondered if you had any plans/approaches for Ayane vs Hayate? I play the MU a fair bit and whilst don't seem to do that badly but a good Hayate feels unstoppable.
KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
You shouldn't really look at ranks. It honestly says nothing about skill. I think you did some good whiff punishment but it's not that I could react to it anyway. The lag was horrendous today. >_<
Makeshift
New Member
True, I meant better players in a broader term and coincidentally only seem to end up win streaking vs lower rankings. Yeah the lag was pretty bad, especially towards the end but the Momiji/Eliott sets were pretty ok from my end. Ggs, hopefully we can play again with less lag soon!
KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
Honestly, I dropped a lot of things (especially in the Eliot match). Blockstun is also very annoying because I shouldn't have to respect your PPP4 on block (but I guess you meant to do P4P instead). But yeah... that's online for ya. We'll have some more matches soon, buddy. Hopefully with less lag.
Makeshift
New Member
I don't think I've ever intended to use PPP4! I assume I'm pushing the 4 fractionally late or something. Although I guess that if I did one too many Ps that would also lead to that string. I noticed that you dropped me once with Eliott (and I dropped you a few times in that game too). Lagless games soon.
What I'm seeing is that you're trying to choose the button most appropriate during your spacing. Some times it works out, some times it doesn't, but it's progress which is important. At this point in time, now you have to practice and learn finding the right amount of space for the moves you're using during spacing. This will boost your decision making in choosing when and where to use a move. You can essentially do this by using training mode. Just set the dummy to not do anything, or to Guard All on both Com Action and Com Reaction.
Start using the moves you've been using during spacing this way so you can get an idea how much range is needed for a move to possibly hit, or safely whiff. Knowing the amount of space needed for your moves is also very important during footsies/spacing. Because if you don't have the right space for the move you intend to use, then it won't out. So that is my next suggestion for you, to practice this and see how it works out as you keep playing more matches.
Also, when you do 66KK during the neutral, be sure to do 66KK4 so that the second kick cancels out safely. It is +1 on block, whereas 66KK actually leaves you in a lot of recovery and a big state of negative frames.
Start using the moves you've been using during spacing this way so you can get an idea how much range is needed for a move to possibly hit, or safely whiff. Knowing the amount of space needed for your moves is also very important during footsies/spacing. Because if you don't have the right space for the move you intend to use, then it won't out. So that is my next suggestion for you, to practice this and see how it works out as you keep playing more matches.
Also, when you do 66KK during the neutral, be sure to do 66KK4 so that the second kick cancels out safely. It is +1 on block, whereas 66KK actually leaves you in a lot of recovery and a big state of negative frames.
Makeshift
New Member
My understanding (from your excellent footsie thread) is that I'm not just trying to use the move when it will hit, I'm using it to stop them coming up into space near me. So what's the difference between controlling space and whiffing: 3P and 3K seems to be hittable in recovery if it misses yet I see all the good Ayane's use it on neutral space with the enemy not so far away?
How is it best to go against someone who has a slightly greater range than me? I struggled with an Ein who just seemed to play as far back as possible?
And then I also wondered if you had any plans/approaches for Ayane vs Hayate? I play the MU a fair bit and whilst don't seem to do that badly but a good Hayate feels unstoppable.
How is it best to go against someone who has a slightly greater range than me? I struggled with an Ein who just seemed to play as far back as possible?
And then I also wondered if you had any plans/approaches for Ayane vs Hayate? I play the MU a fair bit and whilst don't seem to do that badly but a good Hayate feels unstoppable.