Anyone miss DoA5's Power Blow?

[NightAntilli]

I'd been going for stun-launch combos late in DOA5's life, so there was very little adjustment for me. All I needed was to figure out the best juggle with a ground bounce to give me the option for a BB.

Some characters are better for stun launch than others. When I played Momiji, it was practically fully a stun-launch gameplay. But with Leifang which has quite slow and unsafe launchers, extending the stun was a better option. In DOA6, Leifang plays quite a bit differently, even though her old juggles still work, mostly.

 

[extravagant]

@Strangerinmytub I didn't say I preferred Power Blows to Break Blows, I said I wasn't sure which one I preferred, they both have their pros and cons.

I'm going to say you had some pretty solid point on power blows. Most prominently, their status as a comeback mechanic. I never thought of them that way and comeback mechanics are something that should never exist period. Break Blows can be used in a scrubby fashion. But at a detriment to the user for wasting meter. They can regain it, but it returns at a slower rate when you're taking damage, as it should be.

I'm still not sure which I prefer, but objectively the BB is probably a better mechanic. I'm going to withdraw here.

Gonna have to agree with you. Using break blow literally felt like a "one magic button" move to override your opponents attack and land some decent damage. It seems like BBs have some priority over most strikes, and it's just by pressing one button. At least with power blows if you attempt one you ran the risk of missing, being countered, or missing from a sidestep. On the flip side, you were able to fake your opponent out. Fake a power blow, side step twice, and then make your opponent guess something and throw the power blow. I had so much fun with it and destroyed many people with power blows. Personally for me I feel like 6's super meter and BB makes less sense. However most of the people here don't really agree with the power blows.

 

[d3v]

Gonna have to agree with you. Using break blow literally felt like a "one magic button" move to override your opponents attack and land some decent damage. It seems like BBs have some priority over most strikes, and it's just by pressing one button.

As any meter powered move should have. This is like complaining about getting hit by an invulnerable EX DP or Super/Ultra as a reversal in SF, or any other 2D game with meter. And "one button" has no bearing, we've enough tournament data to show that ease of pulling something off doesn't really have as much bearing as you think.

At least with power blows if you attempt one you ran the risk of missing, being countered, or missing from a sidestep. On the flip side, you were able to fake your opponent out. Fake a power blow, side step twice, and then make your opponent guess something and throw the power blow. I had so much fun with it and destroyed many people with power blows. Personally for me I feel like 6's super meter and BB makes less sense. However most of the people here don't really agree with the power blows.

Yes, because gaining access to a super move just by taking 150 damage makes even more sense.

 

[Raansu]

Gonna have to agree with you. Using break blow literally felt like a "one magic button" move to override your opponents attack and land some decent damage. It seems like BBs have some priority over most strikes, and it's just by pressing one button. At least with power blows if you attempt one you ran the risk of missing, being countered, or missing from a sidestep. On the flip side, you were able to fake your opponent out. Fake a power blow, side step twice, and then make your opponent guess something and throw the power blow. I had so much fun with it and destroyed many people with power blows. Personally for me I feel like 6's super meter and BB makes less sense. However most of the people here don't really agree with the power blows.

No one decent was getting hit by a raw PB...I'm mediocre at doa and I can't recall a single time ever getting hit by a PB outside of CB's. It was neat at the time, but we all need to be real here. The PB wasn't that useful of a mechanic. It was pretty rewarding if you managed to land a CB, but really only a few characters with good setups were pulling off consistent CB's because they could basically get a CB without playing much of the stun game.

 

[NightAntilli]

I don't think we need to focus on power blows vs break blows on themselves, but rather how they influence the overall gameplay mechanics. Let's compare them.

- Power blows could only be done after your health drops below 50%.
- Break blows can only be done with full meter.
This basically confirms the power blow as a sort of comeback mechanic. Not only that, the Power Blow is limited to that specific round since it's based on your health. Since meter carries across rounds, Break blows are more versatile in the sense that you can even use it at the beginning of the next round. And more meter is given to the better player.

- Power blows are guaranteed only after a critical burst. For a critical burst, extending stuns is generally required.
- Break blows are guaranteed if your opponent has less than 50% meter and are in a stun that lasts longer than the start-up frames of the break blow. (It can also be argued to be "guaranteed" if you successfully use it is as a Sabaki, but that's a grey area that I'm not going to touch at this moment.)
Since there is no slow escaping in DOA6, in specific situations a single good hit can guarantee a break blow. It requires awareness of the situation rather than playing the guessing game against your opponent.

- A blocked power blow causes a guard break with significant frame advantage that allows a guaranteed follow-up.
- A blocked break blow causes an insignificant guard break that gives you nothing, while losing all your meter and thus requiring meter buildup to use it again.
There is nothing to defend against power blows specifically.
Break blows can be defended with break holds, which require meter.
I put these points together because, wasting your meter with a failed break blow is a lot more costly than failing your power blow. Having no meter equates to not being able to defend against a power blow (and also fatal rush).

- Power blows could be redirected to take specific advantages from within the environment.
- Break blows hit in the direction you're standing.
Probably not really that important in most cases, but it does influence positioning a bit, where you could more easily ledge an opponent with the power blow compared to the break blow.

- After the power blow lands, there is nothing other than simply letting the animation play out. An alternative is the power launcher, which needs to be done instead of the power blow, and gives you a very high launch height instead.
- The break blow allows you to cancel it after it lands so you can do whatever launch and juggle that you want.
This again gives more flexibility to the break blow.

After listing this, I think the break blows are objectively better.
It's not a comeback mechanic, meaning, the one that is ahead is rewarded, rather than the one behind.
The stun guessing game has mostly been taken out of the equation with the break blows.
There is a high risk after using it, especially compared to the power blow. Even after it lands, you are for a short time left completely defenseless against fatal rush/break blows (if stunned) because your meter goes to zero. It requires the attacking player to keep playing well.
Break blows can be used in different ways at different times. For some quick damage after a single stun, a way to extend juggles, sabaki...

 

[d3v]

Probably not really that important in most cases, but it does influence positioning a bit, where you could more easily ledge an opponent with the power blow compared to the break blow.

With how deadly getting caught in the environment is, not having BBs able to redirect opponents might be a good thing.

 

[Raansu]

With how deadly getting caught in the environment is, not having BBs able to redirect opponents might be a good thing.

I'd be ok with it lol.

 

[d3v]

I'd be ok with it lol.

I would too, but I can see where people would end up complaining about it, especially in some stages where you can loop environmental launches a number of times (e.g. Road Rage).

 

[extravagant]

Power Blows are easily countered by doing mid punch counters. I wouldn't say they are a shitty comeback mechanic, they work exactly how a revenge meter like something form Samurai Showdown would work, except without the Just Defend. Building meter through getting hit is not the ultimate best way to run a fighting game, but it's one of many great ways. In the old school fighters such as Capcom vs SNK 2, the K-Groove meter was one of the best and technically skilled ways to fight in the old golden era of Capcom fighters. DoA5's Power Blow is almost similar to that, just without to tick parrying/just defending.

The thing that irks me about Break Burst is the fact that it's literally a one magic button safety clutch. It actually requires less skill and timing to execute, it's a one magic button move, and it does some pretty great damage for just a simple one button move. In Street Fighter, an OG fighter that pioneered supers and meters, it is clear to say that one button supers would be considered huge hand holding by companies to players. We'll just have to really see how this system is going to bloom itself in the pro fighting scene.

BB is definitely not invincible or non-punishable though. I've tried using it couple of times only to end up somehow hit, punished, which costed me a round. Break Burst has a lot of priority over attacks but certain attacks will bypass it somehow. IDK how.

Ain't gonna lie though, BB has saved my ass and KO'd people when I needed it.

 

[Zeo]

No one decent was getting hit by a raw PB...I'm mediocre at doa and I can't recall a single time ever getting hit by a PB outside of CB's.

I actually do have one documented time where I was hit by a raw PB, by Master himself, actually.

Outside of that there may have been... one or... two other times?... Maybe?

He's right though, people don't really get hit by raw PB's. Especially offline.

 

[extravagant]

I landed lots of PB on pro players. Thing about a raw power blow is that it's not guaranteed and is risky, but the skill is finding that gamble to hit someone when they're trying to charge in and attack you. This can almost be similar to say, landing a charging special move like the Summersault from Guile in Street Fighter. It's risky, but if you time (aka charge) it right and your opponent is being punished for not blocking or attempting to attack, the power blow hits them clean, and that actually takes some skill.

I've landed power blow in so many ways, one time I had an opponent block 3 power blows but I changed the timing on each attempt (some fast, some slow) and on the last one he got hit because I went from charging it fast then slow then fast again and scored, won me a round. However these guys were much advanced players so I lost the overall match.

 

[d3v]

Power Blows are easily countered by doing mid punch counters. I wouldn't say they are a shitty comeback mechanic, they work exactly how a revenge meter like something form Samurai Showdown would work, except without the Just Defend. Building meter through getting hit is not the ultimate best way to run a fighting game, but it's one of many great ways. In the old school fighters such as Capcom vs SNK 2, the K-Groove meter was one of the best and technically skilled ways to fight in the old golden era of Capcom fighters. DoA5's Power Blow is almost similar to that, just without to tick parrying/just defending.

The thing that irks me about Break Burst is the fact that it's literally a one magic button safety clutch. It actually requires less skill and timing to execute, it's a one magic button move, and it does some pretty great damage for just a simple one button move. In Street Fighter, an OG fighter that pioneered supers and meters, it is clear to say that one button supers would be considered huge hand holding by companies to players. We'll just have to really see how this system is going to bloom itself in the pro fighting scene.

BB is definitely not invincible or non-punishable though. I've tried using it couple of times only to end up somehow hit, punished, which costed me a round. Break Burst has a lot of priority over attacks but certain attacks will bypass it somehow. IDK how.

Ain't gonna lie though, BB has saved my ass and KO'd people when I needed it.

Execution requirement doesn't matter as much as you think. In fact, most old school SF players don't even consider it when talking balance especially if we know that the best players are pulling stuff of consistently (because balance is only measured at the highest levels of play). I mean, have you noticed that all these fighting games with easy inputs (Rising Thunder, Fantasy Strike) are being designed by OG SF vets?

I landed lots of PB on pro players. Thing about a raw power blow is that it's not guaranteed and is risky, but the skill is finding that gamble to hit someone when they're trying to charge in and attack you. This can almost be similar to say, landing a charging special move like the Summersault from Guile in Street Fighter. It's risky, but if you time (aka charge) it right and your opponent is being punished for not blocking or attempting to attack, the power blow hits them clean, and that actually takes some skill..

This is a stupid comparison. I guarantee you every time you jump in or drop your block string on a good Guile you are getting flash kicked. Charge moves aren't the same since not only do you only have to hold the charge for a few frames, but you can hide/buffer the charge. The latter is the equivalent of being able to do a string, launch, and then have the PB come out immediately because you hid the charge while you did the other moves.

 

[extravagant]

Execution requirement doesn't matter as much as you think. In fact, most old school SF players don't even consider it when talking balance especially if we know that the best players are pulling stuff of consistently (because balance is only measured at the highest levels of play). I mean, have you noticed that all these fighting games with easy inputs (Rising Thunder, Fantasy Strike) are being designed by OG SF vets?

You're right, execution is not everything, but even a decent execution barrier is needed to do simple cool combos and moves. In real life martial arts, there is an execution barrier to your technique, your precision, your tenseness and stuff like that. Execution barrier of old fighters were there to reflect the spirit of real life martial arts training. The execution barrier in the Marvel 2/CvS2/3S era was really tight, yet fluid and rewarding. Umehara EVO 2003 is literally legendary, even to this day no one has done that kind of stuff!

This is a stupid comparison. I guarantee you every time you jump in or drop your block string on a good Guile you are getting flash kicked. Charge moves aren't the same since not only do you only have to hold the charge for a few frames, but you can hide/buffer the charge. The latter is the equivalent of being able to do a string, launch, and then have the PB come out immediately because you hid the charge while you did the other moves.

Technically you are correct d3v, a power blow would be very different from a flash kick. It would be a stupid comparison to say they are exactly the same. I just wanted to only humbly mention their similarities of how DoA5 & Power Blow is similar to picking K-Groove Guile or K-Groove Blanka, but not exactly the same.

I mean, have you noticed that all these fighting games with easy inputs (Rising Thunder, Fantasy Strike) are being designed by OG SF vets?

I had no idea about that. Are these games good? I've got to check that out though, thanks.

 

[d3v]

Here's the thing, even if they gave break blows a more complex input, you're still going to get hit by it out of unsafe strings or on wakeup.