A Brute Perspective on Sidestepping

[Brute]

The new sidestep system has to be one of the most polarizing gameplay mechanics in DOA6. There’s a reason for that, and it’s not as simple as “you need to get good and learn to adapt” or “they dodge everything and it’s unfair.” I think it’s a bit more complicated than that, so just hear me out.

First, it’s important to note that Koei Tecmo thought it would be a smart idea to release a fighting game in 2019 without online lobbies, and as a result, most players’ experiences with the game are contextually quite limited, being primarily relegated to online ranked mode where most people pick their main character repeatedly to climb the ranks. This is important because the character you play is going to have a substantial impact on your experience with the new sidestep mechanic.

For example, let’s say you’re playing Hayabusa. His 4P is an i15 tracking mid punch with several string follow-ups. He also has 1P, an i16 tracking low that crushes highs and has a string follow-up. If you’re feeling a bit more risky, he also has 44P and 2H+K. This is all to say that Hayabusa has tracking moves that are sane to throw out if you suspect that your opponent may sidestep. Sidesteps can still be quite intimidating and will beat out a lot of Ryu’s best pokes, but you also have access to tools that can readily deal with it.

Now, let’s say you’re playing Marie Rose. Your fastest tracking moves are 7K, 8P and the Special button, all of which are wildly risky highs at i17, i18 and i19 respectively. Tossing these out with any degree of frequency will get you blown up. If you want a standalone tracking mid, your fastest options are H+K or 4H+K, mid kicks that are both over i20 frames and unsafe on guard with no follow-ups. Her 2H+K is a tracking low, but shares all the same downsides as her mid options.

Marie simply does not have good tracking tools, which is really odd seeing as her playstyle revolves around repeated poke strikes. Now, you may be wondering why a character who cannot seem to stop spinning and twirling throughout her entire movelist has such a shortage of tracking moves. Visually, 214P definitely looks like it should track, and I don’t see any balance-related reason why it can’t. 9P, 9K and to an extent 3K are all in a similar boat. If gameplay concerns are trumping visual intuition, I don’t see any good reason that Kasumi’s 6K tracks when Marie’s doesn’t. Basically, if you play Marie, you better like YOLO tick throws exponentially more than any other button. Otherwise, you’re forced into playing a very patient, defensive and reactive gameplan, which doesn’t make a lot of sense if you picked Marie, because despite having expert holds, there are plenty of other characters who do that much better.

So, in conclusion, I think players’ perception of the sidestep system is greatly influenced by the character(s) they’ve been playing, and I think that the inconsistencies in its impact will become more apparent when online lobbies are added to the game and people start to get a broader variety of experiences to shape their understanding. Personally, I like the increased consistency in knowing that my SS attacks will beat linear moves even when I’m not playing Akira. But, I really hope that TN pays closer attention to how it affects the roster at large, and make adjustments accordingly. The "it has minimal reward" argument is just not compelling to me when it provides a substantial knockback that can trigger danger-zones leading into insane damage, among a wealth of other benefits that are too quickly dismissed by many of the system's most fervent advocates.

If you disagree, you can begin by rationally convincing me that Ayane vs Marie is not heavily lopsided in Ayane’s favor.

 

[Strangerinmytub]

The new sidestep system has to be one of the most polarizing gameplay mechanics in DOA6. There’s a reason for that, and it’s not as simple as “you need to get good and learn to adapt” or “they dodge everything and it’s unfair.” I think it’s a bit more complicated than that, so just hear me out.

First, it’s important to note that Koei Tecmo thought it would be a smart idea to release a fighting game in 2019 without online lobbies, and as a result, most players’ experiences with the game are contextually quite limited, being primarily relegated to online ranked mode where most people pick their main character repeatedly to climb the ranks. This is important because the character you play is going to have a substantial impact on your experience with the new sidestep mechanic.

For example, let’s say you’re playing Hayabusa. His 4P is an i15 tracking mid punch with several string follow-ups. He also has 1P, an i16 tracking low that crushes highs and has a string follow-up. If you’re feeling a bit more risky, he also has 44P and 2H+K. This is all to say that Hayabusa has tracking moves that are sane to throw out if you suspect that your opponent may sidestep. Sidesteps can still be quite intimidating and will beat out a lot of Ryu’s best pokes, but you also have access to tools that can readily deal with it.

Now, let’s say you’re playing Marie Rose. Your fastest tracking moves are 7K, 8P and the Special button, all of which are wildly risky highs at i17, i18 and i19 respectively. Tossing these out with any degree of frequency will get you blown up. If you want a standalone tracking mid, your fastest options are H+K or 4H+K, mid kicks that are both over i20 frames and unsafe on guard with no follow-ups. Her 2H+K is a tracking low, but shares all the same downsides as her mid options.

Marie simply does not have good tracking tools, which is really odd seeing as her playstyle revolves around repeated poke strikes. Now, you may be wondering why a character who cannot seem to stop spinning and twirling throughout her entire movelist has such a shortage of tracking moves. Visually, 214P definitely looks like it should track, and I don’t see any balance-related reason why it can’t. 9P, 9K and to an extent 3K are all in a similar boat. If gameplay concerns are trumping visual intuition, I don’t see any good reason that Kasumi’s 6K tracks when Marie’s doesn’t. Basically, if play Marie, you better like YOLO tick throws exponentially more than any other button. Otherwise, you’re forcing into playing a very patient, defensive and reactive gameplan, which doesn’t make a lot of sense if you picked Marie, because despite having expert holds, there are plenty of other characters who do that much better.

So, in conclusion, I think players’ perception of the sidestep system is greatly influenced by the character(s) they’ve been playing, and I think that the inconsistencies in its impact will become more apparent when online lobbies are added to the game and people start to get a broader variety of experiences to shape their understanding. Personally, I like the increased consistency in knowing that my SS attacks will beat linear moves even when I’m not playing Akira. But, I really hope that TN pays closer attention to how it affects the roster at large, and makes adjustments accordingly. The "it has minimal reward" argument is just not compelling to me when it provides a substantial knockback that can trigger danger-zones leading into insane damage, among a wealth of other benefits that are too quickly dismissed by many of the system's most fervent advocates.

If you disagree, you can begin by rationally convinciing me that Ayane vs Marie is not heavily lopsided in Ayane’s favor.

I agree with pretty much everything you said here. The main issue here is that sidesteps don't affect each character equally. Some characters are having an identity crisis to deal with sidesteps, while others can throw out the same moves they usually do because they still work.

 

[Radiance]

I hate that fact that it kills strings and so many characters simply have no way to deal with them. Eliot for example has F+K, S, and 4K as tracking moves. All are slow and all of them are unsafe. Other than S (which leads to a guaranteed situation), the other two are not viable options. The other option is to throw in which if you make the wrong read and they attack you're not getting blown up for hi counter damage.

The attack itself is completely invincible which is silly, meaning even after they've recovered from the sidestep you're still going to hit by the linear attack that completely whiffs through your own. I remember a Hitomi player did a move that was safe, and I opted for Eliot's 4k which is around i16-i17, instead of SSA she was able to jab check me because my options for SS are so slow.

Problem 3, the knockback effect. It will send you flying into the nearest dangerzone only to lose 30-40% of your health because someone made a random read.

In many cases the reward for punishing/baiting a SS attack is not as good as landing one.

 

[prototypetom]

It wouldn't hurt what they're trying to do with it if it simply didn't trigger environmental events. I can't imagine that'd be hard to adjust either.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Will say that at least Brute is one of the few people who's actually writing his reasons compared to the FB groups with the common "The SSA is absolutely broken, i'm not sure why it's broken but it is! don't tag me why!" or the "it even beats out my tracking move in my string!" which I will also get into in a minute regarding tracking.

So the thing with the previous DOA with having a step system that absolutely bothered me, was that strings generally retrack itself that normally aren't suppose track to begin with when you perform a SSA. Hell, DOA is generous enough that the attacks don't go off axis similar to other 3D fighters where you'd land guaranteed BT combos because the player continued the string (I know the old DOA freestep system made opponents go off axis sometimes depending on what it is). For DOA's case on the sidestep for 6, it seems to be added faster startup speed with more invulnerability attached I guess, though I was still able to beat it out with strings that have actual tracking within. Characters like Hayate and Raidou's 6PK for example can stop a SSA attack entirely when 6P whiffs and the K completely stops it, but a character such as Diego and Mila have a string that ends with a follow up tracking but turns out their follow up move is too slow to land which SSA lands head first before the actual tracking commences which is actually a speed problem on their part. Then it comes to a matter of "so maybe TN should buff those moves instead?" which I guess they could do that, but then such moves would jail on block or in stun to which you can't hold the follow up due to increasing it's speed making it a natural combo when it lands, thus becoming an unholdable situation. Similar to most character's PP attacks where you can't hold the second punch. So I guess the answer is sticking with DOA5 SS? yeah no thanks (speaking in a good way by the way). Speaking of which, I'd also like to add that SSAs in 6 have a 30 base damage, which during situations where a trade commences, the SSA will likely some trades too if attacks landed at the same time. Since for DOA, the one with the higher damage wins if both attacks for the same speed traded for example I think.

With the step system (which to me was an improvement) allowed slower characters such as Bass, Raidou, and heck even Brad Wong to completely reset the momentum and knock back the opponent that consistently puts attacks on block via speed characters having minimal recovery and trying to guess on when to reverse the situation to land a move for a CH. There's even massive amount of guessing on when to attack when in block stun due to TN making moves on block that are like -10, with like 19 recovery, has strings attached, and on top that it doesn't even track. An opponent can cancel a string midway and perform an entirely different string thus making the guesswork harder than it is (Kasumi PP6P situations or Christie's H+K used on block and then it gets free cancelled into another string or set of attacks that doesn't track). Another situation for example (DOA5):

Player 1 vs Christie -

1) Christie performs 9P which is +0 on block in 5. She's neutral but she very likely going to win the trade against most characters you play with anyway, so you have to guess for the most part.

A: 6PP. You step and get hit with the 2nd follow up. So the Christie player was rewarded for you logically making the correct answer despite both of those attacks do not track whatsoever. To avoid 6PP entirely you'd have to SS twice which is a risk because you may end up getting thrown by an i7 or a back throw (which is unbreakable) or risk getting hit by the 3rd follow up, so the opponent is at advantage for situations to where you aren't suppose to guess so hard and get penalized heavily for it, on top that the moment you get stunned you'd have to quadriple your guessing power from a situation of an opponent who was rewarded for holding forward and hitting the same button twice and having CH properties from it, which results to more damage or a more deeper stun. Also applies to PPP strings, PP6P from Kasumi, and like 28 other strings in the game from other characters that don't have tracking follow ups. If you decide to sit there and block, smart choice, but then you are still in a defensive situation in a heavily offensive oriented game so you could be tick thrown, which for the most part you have to predict or expect it. You will never react to an i7 throw or reset throw after a jab. All this on top of added netplay and latency makes the situation even harder than it has to be. Is this character specific? to where you'd get hit by the 2nd follow up? nope. I can name the huge amount of characters that can get hit with this except Jann Lee since his SSA was quick in DOA5, but who gets lucky with shit like that and yet that also isn't even a definite answer for a problem either. Why should the opponent be rewarded for making false attack/block checks that's not even advantage and you still get blown up for it? (this is not solely a Christie problem, this applies to most other characters in general). You also have some cases of retracking in other 3D fighters too, but they are mostly minimal and not as dangerous compared to DOA where it's a stun and boom, gotta guess for being correct.

Previously I never understood on why TN is trying to do it's own thing and not be traditional with the step system to how SSs are really suppose to be (DOA5 talks at the time) and then DOA6 came out to where they heard the cries for it, though TN did their own way for it to where they seem to have added more invulnerability to the situation or whatever, or faster startup speed of the attack after the step (maybe next time they should ask Sega to do it instead of trying to come up with it's own thing). I prefer this over the old shit, on top that it's -15 with a decent block stun recovery so I developed the habit to even throw it with an i10 or i12 throw after I bait someone to toss a SSA.

Believe me here not joking, I get where people are coming from regarding the SSA because it looks annoying and I sure as hell got hit by it TONS of times, but this is something I can definitely tolerate even if I get wallsplatted to some environmental hazard from getting SSA since it knocks me back and gives me breathing room as well as the opponent. Most people I know (not you Brute) specifically Helena, Kasumi, and Christie players are one of the central portions to not liking the SSA from what I've gathered because they are too used to blowing people for trying to positively step against certain moves and giving these characters free CHs on hit to them for trying to avoid the situation due to the false attack checks that seem to land for just mindlessly attacking and sneaking CHs in for little effort. As how it is in general 3D fighter, if the shit doesn't track you have no business landing it vs a step attack even from a string. For once it allowed neutral checks such as Jab Jab > wait for someone to step > free i12 throw or Jab Jab > 6T while the opponent commenced the step thus giving you the free extra damage for them stepping. If people are still annoyed by this step, then reduce the speed of the attack so that strings that have tracking within (no retracking shit) land or some way to retain this form of stepping on reversing the situations vs strings. Ask Sega to do it I guess but I most certainly do not want the one from DOA5 even though it was a superb game.

 

[kazenouta]

I think the new mechanic of the sidestep, as many of you already said ,is not helping all the characters in the same way. Slow characters without good tracking moves are heavily penanalized. I play 2 slow character as my main (eliot and bayman) so I feel the gap quite a lot. I saw a lot of people saying that the new mechanics are better but I don’t feel the same way. I love the old mechanics but I will adapt to this new one. However I think that the new sidestep is to be change. I mean we already had a sidestep in doa5. You want to buff it…. Ok I can understand that but it’s a bit too much I think. Sidestep is a cancer in the hand of people who understand a little bit the mechanics and start to spam it when they can. And you can't counter it well enough. Hope they will adjust that a little.

 

[DestructionBomb]

I think the new mechanic of the sidestep, as many of you already said ,is not helping all the characters in the same way. Slow characters without good tracking moves are heavily penanalized. I play 2 slow character as my main (eliot and bayman) so I feel the gap quite a lot. I saw a lot of people saying that the new mechanics are better but I don’t feel the same way. I love the old mechanics but I will adapt to this new one. However I think that the new sidestep is to be change. I mean we already had a sidestep in doa5. You want to buff it…. Ok I can understand that but it’s a bit too much I think. Sidestep is a cancer in the hand of people who understand a little bit the mechanics and start to spam it when they can. And you can't counter it well enough. Hope they will adjust that a little.

I killed lots of people who abused it so it is what it is, but stepping in DOA5 was a risk just to stop strings that get cancelled midway or attacks in strings that generally aren't suppose to track. Imagine the opponent being at disadvantage and still ends up scoring a free hit on you or delayed situations for you trying to interrupt it or get high/mid crushed.

I get the feeling that with the amount of complaints, TN might cave in and we are back to square one with a game having a shit sidestep system on top without a true throw break system trying to react to certain things and being forced to be dealt with false pressure of negative attacks on block and figuring out when to CH. I stopped at S so it's whatever, can't wait for lobbies since it takes forever to find people.

For start, people have been asking for a SS improvement since DOA5 vanilla, so take it as you will.

 

[Brute]

I don't get why people treat the issue like it's either DOA5 system or DOA6 system. Isn't it hypothetically possible to work on the DOA6 system and make the Kokoro/Marie/etc. players not get disproportionately shit on while still also having a system that consistently evades linear strikes?

 

[DestructionBomb]

Can't say, that's up to TN. They added meter to DOA6 which imo didn't really need so I felt like they made things more complicated than it has to be. They wanted to fit in (I guess?) to the norm, but I always take note that with every new installment of any type of fighting games there will be issues that people may like or may not like. One of the issues was just sidesteps in general and how it tends to get dominated by just being straight forward or clumsy in 5, so TN heard and this is what we got? I dunno?

Maybe this a test for a better evasion of linear strikes in a future update/game upgrade? not sure. TN's SS for 6 is still different from other fighters where it seems they added more invulnerability while trying to listen to people regarding the ability to avoid linear strikes, especially when the opponent is super negative. So I accepted it on how it is because I couldn't stand getting hit for being correct in a situation in the previous games. I take out Rock but Scissors still beats me by pulling a gun with no hands somehow.

 

[Brute]

I don't accept sub-optimal things. I just begrudgingly tolerate them whilst complaining with increasing degrees of creative sass.

 

[U_C_A_F]

As an Eliot player SSA bails a lot of people out of his string pressure to the point where its pointless even doing them and i'm forced to just poke throw with him making it boring as hell to use him now. It doesn't help that his tracking is horrible with all his options being a single hit that are unsafe and his tracking attacks in strings being all the way at the end and all cause knockdown. All they need to do is buff linear characters with viable tracking options to stuff SS spammers mindlessly relying on it. Make moves like his 4K into a string starter that leads to his other strings or give him the ability to go into his bear stance from a tracking move, no need to even change anything with SSA if all characters have viable tracking options to deal with it which isn't the case right now.

Also to add salt on the wound Eliots own SSA is inconsistent as fuck and constantly whiffs at point blank range if a character is slightly off axis

 

[kazenouta]

I killed lots of people who abused it so it is what it is, but stepping in DOA5 was a risk just to stop strings that get cancelled midway or attacks in strings that generally aren't suppose to track. Imagine the opponent being at disadvantage and still ends up scoring a free hit on you or delayed situations for you trying to interrupt it or get high/mid crushed.

I get the feeling that with the amount of complaints, TN might cave in and we are back to square one with a game having a shit sidestep system on top without a true throw break system trying to react to certain things and being forced to be dealt with false pressure of negative attacks on block and figuring out when to CH. I stopped at S so it's whatever, can't wait for lobbies since it takes forever to find people.

For start, people have been asking for a SS improvement since DOA5 vanilla, so take it as you will.

I dont' complain randomly. You said you counter the sidestep easily and that in doa5 the sidestep where bad. Ok. If you read my message I said I'm ok with the buff of the sidestep but maybe they go a little overboard. The hit of the sidestep is too heavy for a single hit also if you put a mechanic like that you need to equally give to all the characters a way to counter that efficiently. I'm literally scared when someone use sidestep a lot but with mind cause my character can't counter them really well. My tracking moves are few and slow. You said that in doa5 you can't escape to a lot of things but I feel the same right now. When a fastest character attack me and use sidestep in a good way there is no way i win. I'm not a bad player I can say that at least. I was S before with eliot and 20 in the rank system of eliot character on ps3. So I'm not speaking randomly. I feel that TN needs to adjust that. Not remove the mechanics just adjust. For example you can let me sidestep and remove the hit. Then i can chose what to do with my advantage position.

 

[DestructionBomb]

I tend to forget that some people just play differently or just play wild to where they get stuff by a SSA that knocks back.

Imagine losing pressure to mindless shenanigans for constantly hitting buttons on block with huge disadvantage because recovery is helping these players score free hits while having literal guess options to play an actual neutral. People have been blasting people on DOA5 for stepping for so long from sheer clumsiness that they now seem to have witness the revenge of what happens when evasion is actually suppose to kick in? (well, invulnerability might be the right word).

Eliot is getting stuffed, not surprised due to the system change as well as others characters (not just Eliot), but are you going to change a universal system for Eliot's sake? because if that's the case then what's DOA then? ask TN for Eliot improvements, though good luck with that as it'll be no different on the Ein boat. We'd all ask for character improvements and some never reach. Christie got system changes and she's less crazy in DOA6 than in DOA5, do good to get the best goods against evil? possibly.

Imagine only playing DOA and never witnessing good step from another 3D fighter because you've been playing DOA for so long that you just don't give a damn if the game is ass or not. Go ask another company to teach TN on how to make SS evasive then since TN isn't good with it apparently.

 

[Brute]

I tend to forget that some people just play differently or just play wild to where they get stuff by a SSA that knocks back.

Imagine losing pressure to mindless shenanigans for constantly hitting buttons on block with huge disadvantage because recovery is helping these players score free hits while having literal guess options to play an actual neutral. People have been blasting people on DOA5 for stepping for so long from sheer clumsiness that they now seem to have witness the revenge of what happens when evasion is actually suppose to kick in? (well, invulnerability might be the right word).

Basically, if you play Marie, you better like YOLO tick throws exponentially more than any other button. Otherwise, you’re forced into playing a very patient, defensive and reactive gameplan, which doesn’t make a lot of sense if you picked Marie, because despite having expert holds, there are plenty of other characters who do that much better.

As an Eliot player SSA bails a lot of people out of his string pressure to the point where its pointless even doing them and i'm forced to just poke throw with him making it boring as hell to use him now

It's not a case of "hurrdurr you don't play as competently as me so you don't get it."

Eliot is getting stuffed, not surprised due to the system change as well as others characters (not just Eliot), but are you going to change a universal system for Eliot's sake?

That is not what is being proposed.

All they need to do is buff linear characters with viable tracking options to stuff SS spammers mindlessly relying on it.

Personally, I like the increased consistency in knowing that my SS attacks will beat linear moves even when I’m not playing Akira. But, I really hope that TN pays closer attention to how it affects the roster at large, and make adjustments accordingly.

Isn't it hypothetically possible to work on the DOA6 system and make the Kokoro/Marie/etc. players not get disproportionately shit on while still also having a system that consistently evades linear strikes?

 

[DestructionBomb]

And yet again, like I mentioned before. That's up to TN. Maybe TN will increase character viability? who knows, just don't be surprised if they don't in similar ways to DOA5. DOA6 is still fairly new and they are making upcoming patches so who knows what'll happen.

I previously said before that there are answers to the abuse step attack spamming, that shit is so bad on block that Rig gets a free launcher for it without even needing an i12 throw for it. Once again, I was also getting slapped by that a shit TON of times in the beta and early release ranked matches that made me question TN, until I realized it really isn't that bad as it seems. Just your ordinary day of adjustment against a step that is trying to avoid retracking attacks and cancelled strings for the first time in it's entire life.

 

[Brute]

Yes, it's up to TN. If TN is smart, they'll listen to articulate player feedback. If the players are smart, they'll give considered, thoughtful feedback. "There are answers to it so therefore it shouldn't be critiqued and cannot be improved" does not qualify.

Asking for some better tracking tools on characters like Kokoro or Marie is not some heinous crime that denotes someone who can't possibly understand the brilliance of the new SS system.

 

[Radiance]

Reading this I see the pro's and cons.

- This effectively gives slower characters a way to reset the neutral and escape pressure, which is a good thing. Often too many times I found myself in situations playing brad wong with no way of getting my opponent off me other than hoping to "hold" out of the situation or block and wait for a punish. This stops people from going on a string mash/free cancel tantrum and in a way forces people to play honest and utilize the neutral.

The down side is not every character has an effective way to deal with them other than throwing out a slow unsafe attack so it becomes a balance issue. If i'm playing Kokoro and I know my opponent loves to sidestep after a safe string then I can throw out 6pp, or 6pk with Hayate, but not everyone has those options. Some characters are completely shut down (eliot) while others have a barrage of tools to deal with them.

Maybe they can make sidestep attacks slower so we have safe options against them sort of like how Soul Calibur VI's has attacks that are safe from reversal edge? At least this way slower characters will still have the option to stop mashers but at the same time characters with weak tracking will actually have useful tracking moves as well as safe options to deal with them.

 

[d3v]

Imagine only playing DOA and never witnessing good step from another 3D fighter because you've been playing DOA for so long that you just don't give a damn if the game is ass or not. Go ask another company to teach TN on how to make SS evasive then since TN isn't good with it apparently.

This is probably the biggest takeaway we can get from this thread. Tons of people who've only ever played DOA, and who haven't even played any other 3D fighter at a high level suddenly getting shocked that they have to play neutral now and not just up close pressure games. People are just used to pressing buttons and using strings in their opponents faces, looking to get in and get a stun. Me, I've been playing DOA6 more like Tekken now, using a lot of back and forth movement at mid range, trying to bait out pokes for counter hits into stun-launch combos - basically 3D footsies if you will.

 

[Brute]

Well, I'm a legitimate high-level player at every 3D fighter ever, so you should accept what I say on that alone.

As far as strawmen arguments go, that's a pretty weak one.

 

[Akumasama]

Good opening post Brute, I like it.
I think we nailed what the main issue with sidestep is. It doesn't impact all characters equally. Some have more efficient tracking options than others.
Some have such tracking tools built into their default "playstyle" while other characters have tracking tools in moves that wouldn't normally be used, or that are simply not particularly effective.

I'm confident if DoA6 ever gets a rebalancement patch, TN will take all of this into consideration and adjust some of the moves' properties.