6++ Gameplay Overhaul
- Thread starter Rev_an
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E-Mann
Well-Known Member
If I know you like I know you. You’ll definitely enjoy it. I already know you’ll love the new Raidou. I had finalized my DOA6 ventures some time ago now with DOA6++ I got something to hold me till Tekken 8 releases and I’m definitely grateful for that.
Radiance
Well-Known Member
it seems more like a dream patch for Christie and Helena players, if anything and there's no escape from their oppressive offensive once they get started (you can probably add Rig, Zack, and Lisa to that as well). As a Brad player, he actually lost combo routes as the S button was a great float/carry option and the S combo led to damaging combo enders and wall carry. 22_88P I wouldn't even find useful as his walk is so slow it seems like a pointless change.
Zack actually is kinda mid in 6++ since losing FR (S) from stance and combo routes / mixups deriving from 2H+K or string equivalent. He's a bit of a worse version than DOA5 in this because nothing is scary and he lacks initial stun game starters. In this essay I will....
Not really gonna give an essay lol but Zack kinda struggles get anything started (6K and 7P are good, but at a point becomes telegraphed) if it isn't from stance or over i20 (again 6K and 7P are there but becomes telegraphed) on normal hit in this version - and I'll explain that more in a separate message when I figure out what needs to be done to make him better as I don't want him to stomp or break him. Still good on counter hit but who isn't, just can't really do much from anything as his lows don't convert. Nobody's playing him for a reason here. Not gonna stop me from playing him tho you can count on that fr.
(9K is also decent but doesn't exactly have great uses outside of stun)
Brad gets nerfed without S for sure, but can't say how much by. Laying SS being so fast and actually dodging things is a huge pro. Need to play an experienced Brad player to see whats up. He may need some speed / advantage changes to keep up.
I won't lie I will vouch for Fatal Rush and don't think it's crazy to bring it back in 6++ - it makes the weaker characters stand more chance against the stronger characters in the cast who get Fatal Stun for free.
Just another 2 cents
Aye! You know something's right when it brings E-Mann out the shadows. I hope you're getting as much fulfilment from playing 6++ as much as I am dissecting it.
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E-Mann
Well-Known Member
Christie more so than Helena Imo. Helena can be stopped and interrupted the fact is that a majority of our community doesn't actually TRY and learn the match up like they should. There are countless ways to option select her as well as force her to guess. The aggressive and nonstop pressing Helena players are the easiest to take care of as most of them rely on their opponent's hesitation to get them the W. Christie on the other hand is a different story. She's awesome now no lie HOWEVER it will still take skill to utilize all the transitions.
"I'm totally making a community mod guys"
"It is just coincidence that the most famous streamer's main character gets an instakill throw and the most popular top level characters are getting buffed"
What a fucking circus this is lmao
Oh this meme again.
You are high AF right now. What are these Helena option selects?
She has multi hit level delayable strings with safe followups and an evasive stance that literally evades everything except lows and truemids. Also a super launcher throw and two reset throws. She has hands down some of if not the best oki pressure in the game and insane FT setups and unholdables. She also has legit broken move properties. I'll have to find the video and show you. EDIT: found it
Arguing Helena is anything other than top tier is delusional. Same with Christie. Arguing that these changes aren't insane buffs is as delusional.
It is like arguing Eliot's 2H+K is a fair, easy to react to move with high risk, low reward.
You have to be in a whole other universe of cope to say dumb shit like this confidently.
Imagine if he gave Christie her old reset throw from 5. I bet that's next! Lmao
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Radiance
Well-Known Member
I totally agree, Helena has strings that easier to interrupt and OS but I personally don't want to deal with their oppressive limitless mix-up potential. Now, once you're stunned, it's practically a free combo for them without SE'ing or break holds and with Helena having access to 33P in neutral, wakeup kicks no longer threatens her offense.
E-Mann
Well-Known Member
The Helena stuff can certainly be fixed as well as the Christie evasive roll to not go under as much. HOWEVER even with those things getting fixed people will still struggle naturally because they will refuse to to actually lab the match ups. That has been the same problem for years and will continue to be a problem.
Full Cup Bounce
New Member
There's just something deliciously hilarious about Christie players calling for nerfs on characters like Kasumi and Marie because they are "brain dead" and then claiming everything is A-OK when their queen of unga bunga mashing gets buffed and made even more evasive.
Well, this thread is a riot.
I'm not opposed to the idea of a revamp, and if that kind of project is undertaken, one would assume it'd be something incremental and almost inevitably rocky in the first goings. But I am left skeptical of the direction taken, which is honestly a byproduct of how poorly the proponents are structuring their arguments. Granted, some people are a bit wiser than their rhetorical capacity would initially suggest, but I can't say I'm fond of the: "It's new, so might as well support it" attitude.
Personally, I'm not a fan of any of the meter mechanics, and I wasn't a fan of the SSA in DOA6 at launch. So, does removing meter and calling it a day make for a better game? Probably not. Neither state on the table is good, and I'm not exactly hyped about jumping back into DOA for an experience that swaps bad for a different variety of bad. To really "fix" the sidestep system would take an effort that I imagine isn't feasible for the modder at this time. If that changes in the future, and we get something that is thoroughly considered and tempered rather than a hasty attempt at a band-aid solution, I'd assess that effort with keener interest.
Then there's the character-specific stuff, which is kind of its own bag of nails. I find that no one has a great sense of character balance, and begrudgingly accept that I, too, must fit in that crowd. Familiarity and affinity are such aggressive influencers that even the most reasonable and respectable minds fall prey to their influences. That said, I can't help but feel that much of the changelog reads as rather arbitrary in its focus, and possibly too bound to the voice(s) providing input and/or assets available to the modder, which seem quite limited.
Did Rig need a bunch of new stuff? He was an excellent character. Probably had the best designed kit in DOA6. Tons of options that complimented each other nicely to make a robust and versatile kit that rewarded fundamentals and mix-ups without hinging on a small handful of gimmicks. But that needed to change? Just because the modder could give him new things and Rig players wanted new things doesn't mean that he should be given the things.
Did Marie need a bunch of new stuff? She was a kind of trash character that relied on two moves in neutral and was entirely defined by a single bullshit gimmick through her rondo. The system-wide reduction in homing might re-introduce minuet shenanigans (do we really want those back? think hard about the answer), but the system-wide change to SSA pulls that back. In any event, she's still relying on only two pokes in neutral and is going to be spamming that god-forsaken minuet button every second it's not in recovery. So much could be done there, but just isn't being attempted.
Then we have Hayabusa, who gets more stuff in his gimmick stance. I can't be the only one that wants the man to have a decent neutral without being forced into his spazz posing session. No one possibly wants a "mix-up" that involves the rolfcopter spin from ongyoin stance, do they?
To be clear, I'm not exclusively focused on raw strength, but rather retooling kits to a reasonable degree of options that make sense in relation to the respective character's overall gameplan and grandfathered abilities.
Then there's the bigger stuff. For example, no attempt was made to address the i11 jab vs i11 mid situation, which is probably the most glaring MU-related issue in the game. I'm going to assume that attack start-up speed falls under "animation data" and assume that it's being looked into and just wasn't possible with the modder's current knowledge, but if a magic genie gave me one DOA-related wish to grant, after giving everyone a banana costume, I would likely address these privileged-ass i11 mid bitches hogging my nuts at the start of every match because they know damn well that their neutral is garbage but they don't need it if they snowball their ape-brain deathball at the start of every round.
Oki is another area that could use some intense revision. It's also one that basically demands individual inspection on a character-to-character basis. To really remedy that would require a great deal of work, and quite a bit more than I imagine the modder can handle at the moment (certainly more than TN ever bothered to put in). But to really have a mod that compelled me to go back to DOA6 and encourage everyone else to download a new mod, those are the kind of of efforts that would validate such a push for me, personally.
I understand that the argument isn't so much "This is a fix for DOA6" so much as "This is new content for DOA6, so try it out." I don't think these pursuits are inherently wrong or that rev should get coal in his stocking simply for making the effort. But I do also think that a solid degree of skeptical criticism is warranted given what is currently being offered. If this turns out to be the first step in a long project that polishes itself over time into something that eventually compels me to get on board, then great! But I'm also not inclined to give unanimous praise and support for something that seems to introduce as many concerns as it addresses.
TL;DR: I'll endorse the mod when it makes Leon playable.
I'm not opposed to the idea of a revamp, and if that kind of project is undertaken, one would assume it'd be something incremental and almost inevitably rocky in the first goings. But I am left skeptical of the direction taken, which is honestly a byproduct of how poorly the proponents are structuring their arguments. Granted, some people are a bit wiser than their rhetorical capacity would initially suggest, but I can't say I'm fond of the: "It's new, so might as well support it" attitude.
Personally, I'm not a fan of any of the meter mechanics, and I wasn't a fan of the SSA in DOA6 at launch. So, does removing meter and calling it a day make for a better game? Probably not. Neither state on the table is good, and I'm not exactly hyped about jumping back into DOA for an experience that swaps bad for a different variety of bad. To really "fix" the sidestep system would take an effort that I imagine isn't feasible for the modder at this time. If that changes in the future, and we get something that is thoroughly considered and tempered rather than a hasty attempt at a band-aid solution, I'd assess that effort with keener interest.
Then there's the character-specific stuff, which is kind of its own bag of nails. I find that no one has a great sense of character balance, and begrudgingly accept that I, too, must fit in that crowd. Familiarity and affinity are such aggressive influencers that even the most reasonable and respectable minds fall prey to their influences. That said, I can't help but feel that much of the changelog reads as rather arbitrary in its focus, and possibly too bound to the voice(s) providing input and/or assets available to the modder, which seem quite limited.
Did Rig need a bunch of new stuff? He was an excellent character. Probably had the best designed kit in DOA6. Tons of options that complimented each other nicely to make a robust and versatile kit that rewarded fundamentals and mix-ups without hinging on a small handful of gimmicks. But that needed to change? Just because the modder could give him new things and Rig players wanted new things doesn't mean that he should be given the things.
Did Marie need a bunch of new stuff? She was a kind of trash character that relied on two moves in neutral and was entirely defined by a single bullshit gimmick through her rondo. The system-wide reduction in homing might re-introduce minuet shenanigans (do we really want those back? think hard about the answer), but the system-wide change to SSA pulls that back. In any event, she's still relying on only two pokes in neutral and is going to be spamming that god-forsaken minuet button every second it's not in recovery. So much could be done there, but just isn't being attempted.
Then we have Hayabusa, who gets more stuff in his gimmick stance. I can't be the only one that wants the man to have a decent neutral without being forced into his spazz posing session. No one possibly wants a "mix-up" that involves the rolfcopter spin from ongyoin stance, do they?
To be clear, I'm not exclusively focused on raw strength, but rather retooling kits to a reasonable degree of options that make sense in relation to the respective character's overall gameplan and grandfathered abilities.
Then there's the bigger stuff. For example, no attempt was made to address the i11 jab vs i11 mid situation, which is probably the most glaring MU-related issue in the game. I'm going to assume that attack start-up speed falls under "animation data" and assume that it's being looked into and just wasn't possible with the modder's current knowledge, but if a magic genie gave me one DOA-related wish to grant, after giving everyone a banana costume, I would likely address these privileged-ass i11 mid bitches hogging my nuts at the start of every match because they know damn well that their neutral is garbage but they don't need it if they snowball their ape-brain deathball at the start of every round.
Oki is another area that could use some intense revision. It's also one that basically demands individual inspection on a character-to-character basis. To really remedy that would require a great deal of work, and quite a bit more than I imagine the modder can handle at the moment (certainly more than TN ever bothered to put in). But to really have a mod that compelled me to go back to DOA6 and encourage everyone else to download a new mod, those are the kind of of efforts that would validate such a push for me, personally.
I understand that the argument isn't so much "This is a fix for DOA6" so much as "This is new content for DOA6, so try it out." I don't think these pursuits are inherently wrong or that rev should get coal in his stocking simply for making the effort. But I do also think that a solid degree of skeptical criticism is warranted given what is currently being offered. If this turns out to be the first step in a long project that polishes itself over time into something that eventually compels me to get on board, then great! But I'm also not inclined to give unanimous praise and support for something that seems to introduce as many concerns as it addresses.
TL;DR: I'll endorse the mod when it makes Leon playable.
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I'll take "this should be done, and this should be done" as proper feedback and far better than lighting the god damn creator on fighter and telling him he's wrong for it.
I asked Rev in one of the Zakkurye streams if it was possible to bring back the VF characters and his answer didn't make it seem like it was impossible. I'm sure he'll comment on character additions in the future.
Good to see you around, Brute whether it's a short visit or a return - it's good to know you're okay.
I asked Rev in one of the Zakkurye streams if it was possible to bring back the VF characters and his answer didn't make it seem like it was impossible. I'm sure he'll comment on character additions in the future.
Good to see you around, Brute whether it's a short visit or a return - it's good to know you're okay.
Rev_an
Active Member
you know there's a constructive way to talk about this sort of thing and it's not what you're doing.
did you forget what a *beta* is?
I tried the raijin buff because nobody does it and because it's less damage than the juggle. You think i had a relationship with Emery before this weekend? I'm not gonna get into politics but that's the funniest goddamn thing you've said in your life.
Stop acting like the current build is the final build. It's day five bro. I've promised at least one update. It just takes time and thoughtful feedback.
christie got a lot for sure but we need to test stuff to figure out how to balance, that's how this shit works. Games don't spring into the world fully formed like Athena from Zeus's forehead.
Yeah, that's one of the biggest concerns I have.
Revan has too many voices in his ear telling him to do x y z. And if, and when he does make changes to characters, especially with nerfs, these same players might voice their discontent and pressure him to revert those changes. You're never going to satisfy everyone; some people are just going to have to pound sand at some of the forthcoming, necessary nerfs.
It's ironic that the competitive group are all about making some "hardcore" version of the game, yet, at the same time, want to be coddled and their characters handled with kid gloves.
But therein lies another issue I have with revan's attitude about the mod and the lack of reasoning behind these changes.
Like I want to see what the thinking process is in nerfing this move, or buffing that, or removing this, adding that, etc. Because the impression I have is "i'm changing this, don't like it? too bad git gud scrub". Like that's not a solid basis to make changes wholesale. There's a lack of foresight in what changing this move can do that will cause negative interactions with other stuff. I understand you need play testers to iron this out and revise as needed, but it doesn't instill any confidence when you're just doing things willy nilly and, when pressed on why, you just give a dismissive attitude.
One of DOA6's biggest issues is its homogenization. They had this intent to try to balance for equality, but the result is you end up with characters that have the same game plan; you've destroyed any creative combo routes. There are hardly any diverse play styles. Break Blows are all the same, it's not a character specific super. The stages are uninspired. There's hardly any player personality that's shining thru these characters. I mean I can go on and on but you get the idea.
And because of this, what incentive do I have to play a "harder" character, when I can just pick up Diego or Christie and get the same results easier and faster? And there's no balance to how strong Christie is when she comes with such low risk. Yet why do characters like Raidou suffer from more difficult execution when its clearly not worth the effort? If you want to make a tough character to play, you have to make them worth investing the time into. Make him stronger. He should be! And really if I was serious about entering in tournaments, I would be a fool to pick him anyway.
Like there needs to be justification why, for example, this character has a faster jab speed than the other. If you're going to have fast characters, they need to be weak in other areas, just as much as slower characters need to be stronger in other areas. And all this has to be balanced out with risk and reward, on an individual move by move basis, in the context of the overall game system.
I want truly unique characters that stand out, can allow for multiple, viable playstyles to emerge. DOA6 has an extremely stale meta. And the changes I've played thus far, this mod feels like a watered down 5LR.
It's crazy just how awful DOA4's influence has been. 5 and 6 have been band-aiding DOA4 ever since. That's why I don't think DOA6 is worth salvaging.
I just want TN to one day, when they get around to a DOA7, seriously just eschew all the old stuff. Don't even think about reviving DOA4's stun system ever again. Do something fresh from the ground up. Go radical. Be bold.
People just want to play the same old fucking games over and over. Tekken exists, go play that. Hasn't changed since 3.
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Rev_an
Active Member
SSA is under revision. I think it probably has to stay in some form because the engine nerfed free step (ask wazaaaa) and turning off homing breaks some juggles and stun strings so the current balance of what you can free-step and what you cant is enough more correct than everything else that i'm going to focus on that other stuff first before coming back around to how neutral is.
I do fundamentally believe in the SSA changes I made but it's possible it's still too good, but people gotta have a chance to get used to teching up all the time because of the wall oki changes and some of the other ground game
i did way more than remove meter and call it a day ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, remember this is a beta, i.e. work in progress and I haven't really done anything to address the stun/pressure situation that people are worried about. I have a few ideas about changes to stuns but for the most part the ideas coming in on that are shit-tier "put break hold back in" rather than constructive input from the people who are constantly hating, and the not useful for development but fine i guess "huh that's hard to deal with i need to lab it" from people with what i think is a better mindset.
explain more your problem with i11 highs and mids clashing please, and what you expect to happen instead of the mid winning because it does more damage unless everything lines up so that the mid is short. I know people have thoughts about the frame tiers like that but that's been a thing in doa for 20+ years so i'm not gonna normalize everyone to the same speeds without really thinking about the consequences. "no attempt was made" bro give me time please lmao.
on marie stuff
thank you for pointing out a problem but I can't really do anything with this, it's not specific and it's not constructive. I'm happy to normalize marie with changes, same as everyone else, but I have 31 characters to be thinking about and i'm a) not going to get to everything immediately every 6-8 weeks and b) able to work more effectively with something more substantive than "here are some broad high-perspective problems" that could be addressed in multiple ways with no suggestions or indication of preference.
nobody needed stuff per se. I could've added nothing and gone into balancing immediately and still had something better than doa6 retail but it's more interesting for me and looks like it's more fun for everybody else to get a pile of unbalanced "new" moves added to the game. Not adding stuff would be far closer to the removing meter and calling it a day that you mentioned than what I chose to do.
Rig (and some other characters) gonna get some nerfs, potentially up to and including removing the 4-way the new moves give him but I can't make called shots like that.
Oki is far from final, we (actual we, i think ponton or alex coded it) implemented the doa 5 wall splat oki that TN said would've been in an official patch if support hadn't ended. and that changes a lot. I added those 1-hit force techs but we're not aware of the full consequences of that yet because it's been 5 whole days. Everybody shit's on the doa 6 ground game and I agree it seems not worth it to go for force-techs for many characters because of the two hit system, but people aren't' really forthcoming with an explanation of what good ground game would be so I just tried something that seemed reasonable and if the option selects are too good maybe it needs to get cut again.
I'm good with skepticism, it's fair, i don't have a resume and this shit is hard to get right, as we've seen with retail games not getting it right. A priori rejection is... unfortunate but I don't blame anybody for looking at a product and deciding not to try it. I have more than enough people hyped up and playing to work with, but even if I only had 10 players I knew going in that it wouldn't appeal to everyone and I made my peace with that before I opened the first .bin to modify it.
Your post is terse and sometimes unconstructive but that's way better than the nonsense from the outright haters. Hopefully we can work together to get your concerns to a level of detail that's useful to the process and I'll either agree with you or not and we can either reach consensus or the project ends up not being for you and we can be adults about that.
totally fair. appreciate you taking the time.
haha god i wish. Modding the character select screen is more than a bit outside my range but i'd shit my pants if somebody figures out how to expand it so i can make remixes of the 3 story mode characters (boss, prototype, and an extra phase 4 for some reason) or like proper stage modding or whole ass character imports.
i know 3++ is importing some kinds of things but their formats are different and they've been at it for years and years. I can only dream of being on that level.
rjqnraos19
Active Member
Is it possible to add boss raidou in arcade and time attack mode?
AlexXsWx
Active Member
Replacing "raidou.bin" with "raidou_boss.bin" might just work
Rev_an
Active Member
i thought i tried that and it doesn't. idr
also the boss bin would be in alex's thread's download i went really bare bones on 6++
cheat-engine swapping works a bit differently and i believe the VS setting works for those modes but i cannot remember. I should try loading in different characters for that diego/jann fight in story mode with the special version of throwdown. that sounds at least a little interesting.