You all need to make sure you understand what is going on before asking Team Ninja for nerfs/buffs.

[sterling irvin]

I hope that they rebuff Hayabusa, there are lots of talented loyal fans who play with him but half the time they drop him because of how badly he's been nerfed. I'm not saying he has to be overpowered but, at least give the guy somewhat of a chance to step back into the spotlight.

 

[Zeo]

I hope that they rebuff Hayabusa, there are lots of talented loyal fans who play with him but half the time they drop him because of how badly he's been nerfed. I'm not saying he has to be overpowered but, at least give the guy somewhat of a chance to step back into the spotlight.

At least he's still viable though. Hayate is competitively unplayable at this point. At this point I believe he's gotten hit with the nerf bat harder than anyone else in the series. Originally I thought Helena got nerfed like that with him but after discovering her insane force tech game she's viable on that alone.

You can play him now when the game is new and everyone is still adjusting, or online when you can't react to half as much as you would normally. But play against someone who knows what's unsafe, when to attack, etc. You'll be lucky to get a round. He needs to go back to DOA3.1 status or at least DOA4 status.

If we were buffing characters, the ones I think would need them (not including VF characters) are Hayate, Zack and Lisa. Brad is turning out to be a pretty viable character. Ryu and Tina dispite their shortcomings are still competitively viable from their throw game alone.

Then there's Helena last... though It would be a nerf sadly. Give her safety, a little more speed and a little more damage but take away the ridiculous force tech and she still wouldn't be as good as she is now with it.

 

[Murakame]

If we were buffing characters, the ones I think would need them (not including VF characters) are Hayate, Zack and Lisa.

What do you believe Hayate needs in order to be viable? also what makes you think Lisa needs to be buffed?

EDIT: for a start I was thinking his guard breaks should be +2 no more than 3. And give PP2KP guard break properties. It would also be nice if he could transition into wind dash mid string.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Taking away or changing force tech isn't character specific. That requires the game mechanics to be changed (again) to change force techs. And Helena isn't the only force tech monster in the roster either. If you believe she's the only one capable of it, you haven't seen ridiculousness yet. People need to get in the lab and start exploring some more.

 

[Jefffcore]

Hayate is better than Hayabusa. Hayabusa is a bunch of gimmicks, Hayate at least has his speed.

 

[Zeo]

What do you believe Hayate needs in order to be viable? also what makes you think Lisa needs to be buffed?

EDIT: for a start I was thinking his guard breaks should be +2 no more than 3. And give PP2KP guard break properties. It would also be nice if he could transition into wind dash mid string.

I hate to sound ignorant but I can't remember the specific reasons for Lisa but from what I recall from Lisa players she's not too different from her DOA4 self and she's generally regarded as low. As far as basic knowledge goes, she seems slow, unsafe and I've actually managed to sidestep her offensive jumping holds. But I'll step off and let someone knowledgeable about Lisa talk about what her problems are, she might not even be low actually for all I know.

Now as for Hayate, this is what I think would make him viable.

- His Guard Breaks (outside of the wind dash one) all giving +3 to +5, +1 is useless especially when other characters can get more than that (and more than +5 for that matter) with less effort.

- 1k either needs to be safe or changed to his original 1k with the followups. It's a single strike crush that is grossly unsafe. It should also put you into a crouching status. If I'm getting on the ground to attack, OHs like Jann's Dragon Gunner should not pop me back up into a standing position, that makes no sense.

- Give him back 4F+K, one of his best moves and fairly safe to boot. There was no reason to remove this move and it hurt him a lot losing it, they could have easily found something else to use as his wind dash kick launcher, and speaking of wind dashes...

- Buff his wind dash mid kick and mid punch launchers, you get nothing out of the mid kick launcher except a single string, the damage is bad and you're left at -15 AND BT, it's one of the most pointlessly unsafe moves he has and you get nothing out of it to compensate for the risk of it being blocked. Buff the damage from the launch or make it safer on block. The mid punch launcher is decent but it should be a bit safer and guard break on hit. And lastly give him back his teleport to the opponent's back that he had in DOA4.

- Either make 9pp safe or give it advantage on block (Don't say cheap, it's 3.1 status).

- Give more frame advantage to his 236F+P, he gets a 100 damage guaranteed combo if he can land 7p (19 frame CB) on a BT opponent, he should have something that actually makes it usable.

- 8/2 P+K, P should sit-down on CH like it did in the alpha build.

- 1p should be safe on normal hit, he can be punished by neutral throws at -7.

- 3pp and 4k (in BT) sit-down stuns should guarantee a CB.

- Return his 3F+K2KP string back to DOA4 status, the low kick should be able to be delayed again. Why was this nerfed to begin with?

I think this would make him a solid mid tier character and plenty viable as he would actually have options like he used to.

 

[dawnbringer]

- His Guard Breaks (outside of the wind dash one) all giving +3 to +5, +1 is useless especially when other characters can get more than that (and more than +5 for that matter) with less effort.

+1 is not useless. +1 is awesome.

- 1p should be safe on normal hit, he can be punished by neutral throws at -7.

Neutral throw is not guaranteed, so you can work around that.

 

[Zeo]

+1 is not useless. +1 is awesome.

+1 is ok in a game with a million unsafe attacks. However, Hayate has to put himself out there and use ridiculously long charge attacks that can be held or blocked without much fear and all he gets out of it is +1. The VF characters get +1 any time they want by Jabbing. Hayabusa, Leifang and more characters get more than +5 off of much easier and safer things. My point stands, his +1 is useless and needs to be an advantage that actually compensates for the risk you're taking.

Neutral throw is not guaranteed, so you can work around that.

He can be low thrown because he crouches, that is guaranteed. Only standing neutral throws can be teched. Again, my point stands.

 

[NightAntilli]

For the next DOA, they need to make pulling off a stun more difficult. Getting a stun is way too rewarding, and involves so much guessing, that's it's damn near guaranteed. Frustrating mix up guess game, all from a single poke. Make it so stuns are only possible with certain attacks on counter hit.

If they do this, they have to make more moves plus on normal hit. There are too many moves that leave you at a disadvantage on normal hit.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Might as well just say you want DOA to be a completely different game.

 

[dawnbringer]

+1 is ok in a game with a million unsafe attacks. However, Hayate has to put himself out there and use ridiculously long charge attacks that can be held or blocked without much fear and all he gets out of it is +1. The VF characters get +1 any time they want by Jabbing. Hayabusa, Leifang and more characters get more than +5 off of much easier and safer things. My point stands, his +1 is useless and needs to be an advantage that actually compensates for the risk you're taking.

I agree that better frame advantage is better. I don't agree that +1 is useless if you can get it.

He can be low thrown because he crouches, that is guaranteed. Only standing neutral throws can be teched. Again, my point stands.

Your point indeed stands then. You called it neutral throw punishable earlier, while it is low throw punishable. Low throw is a command throw.

Edit: fixed a typo after noticing it in Zeo's quote.

 

[Zeo]

I agree that better frame advantage is better. I don't agree that +1 is useless if you can get it.



You point indeed stands then. You called it neutral throw punishable earlier, while it is low throw punishable. Low throw is a command throw.

That's my bad then, I should have said low throw.

The +1 is useless though. Because the risk is not worth the reward and the best he can do against people with 11 frame mids and 10 frame jabs is jab himself (which can be held, sidestepped or even crushed). On top of that he can be held or simply hit before he finishes the long charge. I don't mean +1 in general is useless but his charges are useless because they only give +1.

 

[HiguraShiki]

At least he's still viable though. Hayate is competitively unplayable at this point. At this point I believe he's gotten hit with the nerf bat harder than anyone else in the series. Originally I thought Helena got nerfed like that with him but after discovering her insane force tech game she's viable on that alone.

Hayabusa viable? Pfft... Hayabusa got destroyed. He isn't even a strike oriented character anymore.

 

[Zeo]

Hayabusa viable? Pfft... Hayabusa got destroyed. He isn't even a strike oriented character anymore.

Master as good of a player as he is, is making Hayabusa work and he has enough to work with even if he's not the greatest character anymore. Tell me if you can find any high level Hayate players that actually have taken him to a tourney and placed well since the game's release.

Hayabusa got hit hard with the nerf bat not going to argue with that, but he's still a better character than Hayate and I would take him to a tourney before the latter.

 

[Chaos]

Wait....Hayate had a sit down stun attack on the alpha built?

 

[Jefffcore]

Master as good of a player as he is, is making Hayabusa work and he has enough to work with even if he's not the greatest character anymore. Tell me if you can find any high level Hayate players that actually have taken him to a tourney and placed well since the game's release.

Hayabusa got hit hard with the nerf bat not going to argue with that, but he's still a better character than Hayate and I would take him to a tourney before the latter.

No he's not. Master is making him work because he good and people dont know how to deal with his gimmicks. Saying Hayate is worse because no ones played him isnt really fair.

 

[Zeo]

No he's not. Master is making him work because he good and people dont know how to deal with his gimmicks. Saying Hayate is worse because no ones played him isnt really fair.

The point was that there's a reason why you aren't seeing any Hayate players at tournaments. No one has faith him as a viable competitive character. Master may be loyal to Hayabusa but I don't think he would still use him if he didn't believe he was viable enough to take to a tournament. Perfect Legend however, along with other Hayate players are using different characters because Hayate is crap competitively.

But I'm curious. Why is Hayate a better character than Hayabusa aside from his 12 frame mid punch?

 

[Scornwell]

The point was that there's a reason why you aren't seeing any Hayate players at tournaments. No one has faith him as a viable competitive character. Master may be loyal to Hayabusa but I don't think he would still use him if he didn't believe he was viable enough to take to a tournament. Perfect Legend however, along with other Hayate players are using different characters because Hayate is crap competitively.

Speaking of Perfect Legend, he actually tried to play Hayate for a bit at Season's Beatings. Didn't work out too well.

 

[Jefffcore]

The point was that there's a reason why you aren't seeing any Hayate players at tournaments. No one has faith him as a viable competitive character. Master may be loyal to Hayabusa but I don't think he would still use him if he didn't believe he was viable enough to take to a tournament. Perfect Legend however, along with other Hayate players are using different characters because Hayate is crap competitively.

But I'm curious. Why is Hayate a better character than Hayabusa aside from his 12 frame mid punch?

Everything he has is better. Range game and damage are about the same, then he's faster and safer.

 

[Zeo]

Everything he has is better. Range game and damage are about the same, then he's faster and safer.

Not really that much better. Safer doesn't really matter if you're already unsafe. Let's see... 6kp, 9p 4pp, 3k. Yeah, not all that relevant. At least Busa has his Izuna counters as well.

Saying everything he has would imply that a lot he had was better, busa has better counters and a better throw game, range is the same and they are both so grossly unsafe that it's irrelevant who is more unsafe (though Busa has 3F+K which is a tracking guard break which gives him advantage, better than any ranged attack Hayate has outside of his abysmally slow charge guard breaks which give him a whopping +1).

I suppose you could say Hayate is better simply because of his speed though. When you've got little else but gimmicks, speed is nice to have. At least Busa has better gimmicks.