Is online completely meaningless?
- Thread starter WebHead
- Start date
Passing a value judgement on a shitty implementation is not a meaningless statement, except to the extent any value judgement is objectively meaningless. We're not saying "online is meaningless" in some abstract sense, we're saying it's just so bad it can't really reflect how the game is intended to be played.
To some extent I think VF and DOA are doomed to suck online because they rely on such relatively small windows of frame advantage and punishment. Again, I play with some hardcore crew offline in VF (one guy took his pool at Evo, for example) and most of them won't touch online in that game. If 2 frames of lag will destroy your frame trap or screw up punishes it's a lot harder on netcode. I haven't had a chance to try Tekken Tag Tournament 2 extensively yet, but aside from what I'm told about its netcode being black magic I think that Tekken is just not as sensitive to frame data in the same way. If you look at how few attacks actually give advantage and the size of the minimum punishment window (-10, at least) there's a lot more room to work with lag then either VF or DOA have.
To some extent I think VF and DOA are doomed to suck online because they rely on such relatively small windows of frame advantage and punishment. Again, I play with some hardcore crew offline in VF (one guy took his pool at Evo, for example) and most of them won't touch online in that game. If 2 frames of lag will destroy your frame trap or screw up punishes it's a lot harder on netcode. I haven't had a chance to try Tekken Tag Tournament 2 extensively yet, but aside from what I'm told about its netcode being black magic I think that Tekken is just not as sensitive to frame data in the same way. If you look at how few attacks actually give advantage and the size of the minimum punishment window (-10, at least) there's a lot more room to work with lag then either VF or DOA have.
shunwong
Active Member
It's even worse for DOA. Grab punishment in VF5FS is 10 frames. In DOA5 it starts at only 5/6 frames.
SilverKhaos
Active Member
Yaknow, you'd think being able to play online and offline would simply show how good you are at being able to adapt, rather than saying the online sucks because you can't do your usual combos/gimmicks.
When it won't read my sidestep, I switch tactics so I don't need to rely on the sidestep with Mila. Simple as that.
When it won't read my sidestep, I switch tactics so I don't need to rely on the sidestep with Mila. Simple as that.
Mailifang
Well-Known Member
*I will say that online play because of its reliance on different internet connections by the players is very inconsistent.So its not a reliable way to gauge a players true skill.But I also know that if a player is good online they are just as good or better offline.
Sure there may be a few players who use lag tactics to win that will get them killed in offline play.But if they beat you in lag free match fair and square than you really have no reason to question the persons skill.
*Every person who has supported DOA by buying the games care about the game. Otherwise they wouldn't bother buying it.Especially when games cost 65 bucks after tax.
*Casual and Online players do support the community.Because they make up the majority of the DOA community. They just don't attend major offline events. Everyone cares about the the game.Its just you care about the high level offline competitive scene.
* There are plenty of people here to discuss the game with who care about the game in the same way that you do. There are also plenty of people who care but in a different way. But they are still apart of the community. Its your own prejudice against casual and online players that causes a rift within the community.
*The casual and online scene does want DOA to get accepted by the FGC as a whole. They also want the game to be represented at major offline events like EVO and have hype matches at tournaments.Its just we in the high level community can't just demand the community show up to offline events or discredit how the community plays the game and expect the community to respond. Its time we changed our tactics.
* We need to educate and show them why offline play needs to be the standard. And DOA offline events can be fun and rewarding to the players. Not just in terms of winning money but also in prizes and just meeting other players.Local scenes do this better than major events.
*Most of the players I taught to play the game never played a DOA game before. I got Smash Bros,Tekken, SF players, and people who never played fighting games to play DOA. How you ask? I made the game accessible,I offered tips while I played, I gave away DOA games as prizes, I picked a location that was known and easy to get to by various means of transportation, and I made the environment welcoming,fun and friendly to new players.
*I wish you well in starting an offline scene in Japan.
It doesn't matter if you're good online. Sure you MIGHT be as good, or better offline but it doesn't matter because no one is going to see how "good" you really are until you play offline. Support the game help the scene build. That's what its all about. Exposure. Not only for yourself but the game you love. I also known for playing "online" but I know where my heart is and I don't consider myself a online player. I'm going to get that exposure I'm looking for for myself and for this game. At the end of the day that all that matters. I'm not exactly "financed" so doing what I do is hard AF. But I'm going to do it. Any tournament offline I can make it to you damn right i'm going to bust my butt to make it there. IPL, Evo(If DOA5 possibly be there) I'm looking at you too. Online is nothing more is a form of practice that's really all you can hope to gain from it.
Mailifang
Well-Known Member
It wasn't too bad in the arcade era of the mid to late 90's.But the early 2000's is when I encountered a bunch of bullshit. In the arcade era is was all about playing in order to keep playing.50 cents per game adds up after every loss lol. So by default you were forced to raise your game in order to save enough money to buy food. It was also about discovering new tactics and strategies in the games themselves.
Once the arcade scene died and consoles became the standard.Many players created online communities to keep scenes alive. People would organize meet ups at Golfland's, Chuck e Cheeses, and local comic shops. People would meet up, play ,and go home.We also saw the rise of players who were just "killers".Many of the previous tactics and strats became basics and then the "killers" set new standards not only for the games but the cultures within their communities and the FGC as a whole.
Sirlin's Playing to Win rant ...er article became the de facto code of high level play ethics.The Art of War for high level competitive play. This opened the floodgates in the FGC as a whole.Every player who read it wanted to become "killers".I still meet players who quote that article like bible scripture. If Sirlin's goal was to raise the level of play within a community going through puberty at the time he achieved his purpose.
Sadly the FGC hasn't grown out of its puberty stage.The same bullshit has been going since 2002. Its just the FGC has gotten a lot bigger since then.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Is it a community if you don't turn up?
Is it a family dinner if people don't sit around the table?
Sure, online play and posting on forums DOES mean you're contributing to something in the overall community, depending on the value of the contributions.
But when it comes to people paying attention to our community and whether DOA is included in anything, the only thing that counts is seeing people turn up. That's pretty undeniable.
Try not turning up to your next job interview.
Is it a family dinner if people don't sit around the table?
Sure, online play and posting on forums DOES mean you're contributing to something in the overall community, depending on the value of the contributions.
But when it comes to people paying attention to our community and whether DOA is included in anything, the only thing that counts is seeing people turn up. That's pretty undeniable.
Try not turning up to your next job interview.
Mailifang
Well-Known Member
True.You are seeing a community in action when they participate in offline events. People create communities based on many different things. It depends on whether you just want an offline competitive community that is recognized by others in the FGC or Just an very active online community or Just community that functions as a whole. I know this site wants the former more so than the latter. But a community has to be built. It comes when people work together for a common goal.And it must take proper steps to get built the right way.
If the community is all in on trying to get recognized as a whole then recognition will come. But if the community is split on how it plays the game then one side needs to find a way to bring both sides together. If the high level community keeps considering itself and its style of play as being an exclusive club and demanding the rest of the community raise its game by coming to offline events and not recognizing how the majority of the community plays the game.That is just counter productive. The high level community will just continue to have a lack luster number of players that only consist of the top players that show up at offline events.
Instead of getting pissed about it and lashing out at the community maybe its time we started giving back by educating. Because as of now most of the DOA community is not buying what we are selling.
I'm sure in this day and age no one is going to pass up an interview for a job. Passing up a offline gathering to play a video game is another story.
I miss the days of where you would bump into some random person at an arcade or gathering a just be like "hey you play this game?" the person would be like yeah. Then you just play.No offline/online BS and drama. I still get this when it comes to playing SF and Tekken. Not so much when it comes to DOA.
After being here for a couple a months now. I just now realized that I'm just preaching to the choir. I love DOA as series and want the game and the community to get the respect it has earned and deserved. Its just seems like to me the DOA high level community wants to preserve its style of play and advocates everyone else falls in line and do the same or the DOA community is doomed. To some degree its true.In the eyes of the FGC we are basically almost non existent at major offline events. At the same time it isalso BS because the fans and players continue to support and buy the games. Hell, even the WWE wrestling game community is very active yet they do not put on offline events.And the online community is horrible yet THQ wrestling games still sale and are supported by the wrestling community.
Its easy for us in the high level community to point fingers and blame the casual and online players for not showing up to offline events. But if you look at this games roots it never really developed a hardcore arcade community. Nor got that easy name recognition that games like SF and Tekken has developed over time.DOA gained its fame (whether good or bad)off of fan service, game play, and being a console based fighting game throughout its existence here in the states.
As of now we are a community of puppies trying to be top dog. We got "killers" and those that support the DOA offline scene. But we are not communicating and getting together as a community as whole. Online is and was the one way we could have. But all I read and heard from the more vocal in the high level community during the DOAU days is that online play sucks and not valid for competitive play. I just find it funny that those that wrote it off online play were the ones that probably lost more than they wanted to players who they deemed wasn't good online. From my understanding the high level DOA community is made up of a small but passionate group of players.Who are very dedicated to promoting the game. Yet when your on an island for so long and just play among yourselves you start to buy into your set of standards and BS.I feel online play was a new frontier for the DOA community to embrace and capitalize on. Instead of embracing it quite a few of the high level community frowned upon it.
They were many including myself who consider themselves high level players who have contributed to the community by doing local events as well supporting the game by playing online, who were a bit turned off by how the most visible and vocal DOA players were hating on not just online play but its players. DOA was one of the first 3D fighting games to go online. And finally DOA players from around the world can play against each other. Instead of being happy or having a sense of pride it was then considered a non factor in how the game should be played by our esteemed high level community.Those we looked up to and watched on televise events and youtube videos just basically wrote off the majority of the DOA community and imposed a challenge "Prove to us your better by coming to offline events".
I'm not hating on Offline play or the high level community.I support it 100%.I just choose not to ignore or separate myself from the DOA community as a whole. I'm just a part of the many players who just want to play the game. I'm sure quite a few of you are tired of my "wall of text " posts on this or similar issues concerning the DOA community or the FGC in general. I'm even tired of having to repeat myself or say the same things but in a different way. I don't want to be seen as a troll or just as that one obnoxious person who comes off as a rebel on the forums. I mean no disrespect to everyone here.whether you are pro or beginner. I got nothing but love for the the DOA community and its players as a whole.
I'm just a 36 yr old woman still grasping to her early 20's by playing the game she loves to play. I also realized that I am a 36 yr old woman on the the verge of becoming a bitter and senile individual over dealing with young people in general lol. So this will be my last post on issues dealing with the DOA community on this site. I'm just gonna let the FSD community be what it wants to be.
My opinions are probably best served at other forums where I can be more involved in getting the DOA community to get out the house so to speak. I won't be posting here that often but I will be lurking around the site.If you notice I'm on send me PM.Or if you see me on PSN send invite me to a lobby for some matches.
SilverKhaos
Active Member
Easily one of the best posts on any fighting game forum, as it applies not just to DOA, but to all fighting games.
Saddest part is, everyone that you aimed that post at will likely completely ignore or disregard it, proving you right.
Mailifang
Well-Known Member
Yep. That's how it is with those who put themselves at a higher standard.It also just proves why should the Casual or online players care about the high level offline players when they don't seem to care about them. Someone posted a topic about having a tourney between DOAW and FSD and it got locked after one comment. So it just shows that this site really does not care about the DOA fan base as a whole.It just cares about attracting and getting players to get to offline events based on their standards on what the community should be.
I have said all that I had to say.I'm sure Team Ninja will continue to support the DOA series of games no matter how torn the DOA community is.I just find the irony in how the gaming media and the DOA community treats only handful of pro DOA players like rock stars yet we cannot support each other as a community.
I'm at the point where I'm might just retire from this BS and find another hobby lol. Oh well in he end it really doesn't matter.I'm not gonna get my panties in a bunch over BS and community politics. Like I said the FGC hasn't grown out of puberty yet.
SilverKhaos
Active Member
Like I said, its why I have no interest in joining the "high level" community. They just suck all the fun out of the game. Its also partially why I play a handicapped style (mostly for the satisfaction though), I don't want to be associated with them.
I've tried other fighters, but its mostly the same kinda thing with the community. I also lived on a ranch up in the mountains most of my life, so online is the only way for me to play. That doesn't automatically make me a worse player than someone playing offline, and its insanely hard to get that fact through some peoples heads.
Mailifang
Well-Known Member
The definition of "fun" varies from person to person but I know where your coming from. I live in city where the offline DOA scene is pretty much non existent. When I was organizing tournaments I had about 10 to 12 dedicated players that would participate. The other 5 or 6 players were just walk ins and experienced fighting game players who figured they could beat everyone and get the prizes.
SilverKhaos
Active Member
Please tell me the "experienced" ones got their asses kicked.
I feel the problem with this community you got too many dumba** people going around dissing their OWN game. Supposedly their game anyways. Then the same people whine and complain about having no offline scene...etc. Where is the motivation from this community? I for one wants to see it build because I love the game. People shouldn't be afraid to travel or play the game offline because they don't want to have to deal with the arrogant morons who run off at the mouth on here. This community lack respect. The true definition of the nerd stereotype people make fun of. That's pretty much how people would look at this community. No respect, hardly any good examples from top players, argue about every little stupid thing. No one can have an opinion. I can go on. I'll continue to play the game as long as it have offline tournaments or anything going that I can get to. Any of those dumb a** players I describe above can f*** off. People have growing up to do. If you love DOA enough to travel don't let anything stop you. If you run into players that run off at the mouth let them do it. In the end no one going to respect them. Just add them to the ignore list.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
I don't really know what you guys are talking about... players are players... and meeting players in real life, playing them offline, is just a much better experience.
People are friendly and theres good comaraderie at tournaments. There's no clique or conspiracy. There's the simply fact that offline play is where the game is real and played to its fullest.
If you have an opportunity to get to an event, its highly recommended. Playing online is okay, but it just doesn't stack up, it does limit you. That's not elitist, its a matter of fact. People who want to get more out of the game, from improving their skills to just enjoying the game with real people, need to get out of this "us and them" mindset and just understand the difference between the two experiences.
Every online game is just practice for offline games you may have in the future. Doesn't make it any less a part of the game experience, but if you decry offline play, you're choosing to not really play the game in a correctly working state, plus missing all the social and skill related benefits
There's no schism here. Online is just what you do when you can't play offline. Every fighting player of every skill level in every game understands that.
People are friendly and theres good comaraderie at tournaments. There's no clique or conspiracy. There's the simply fact that offline play is where the game is real and played to its fullest.
If you have an opportunity to get to an event, its highly recommended. Playing online is okay, but it just doesn't stack up, it does limit you. That's not elitist, its a matter of fact. People who want to get more out of the game, from improving their skills to just enjoying the game with real people, need to get out of this "us and them" mindset and just understand the difference between the two experiences.
Every online game is just practice for offline games you may have in the future. Doesn't make it any less a part of the game experience, but if you decry offline play, you're choosing to not really play the game in a correctly working state, plus missing all the social and skill related benefits
There's no schism here. Online is just what you do when you can't play offline. Every fighting player of every skill level in every game understands that.
SilverForte
Well-Known Member
Playing offline with a group of people is just a much more satisfying experience. Playing online can't really compare. Unfortunately it's all I got now.
Ooobe
Active Member
True enough that you absolutely must have enough players for the tournament not to be seen as a joke, but don't discount the impact that the number of stream viewers has either. While it's probably vital to have no less than (say) a dozen players at an event, sponsors are more likely to note the number of viewers the event garners. The community is made of more than just the competitors, so I'd have to disagree with your "only thing" comment. How much would professional athletes get paid if it wasn't for the fans?
Of course commentary by disinterested and ignorant hosts that make DOA look like some kind of charity add on event doesn't help either.
Online is as meaningful as the relationships you build from it. It's the people you play, not the matches. I'm really looking forward to watching people I've played compete in events this weekend. I'm not watching to watch the game (I can do that in my living room) I'm watching to watch the players. Good luck all and play well!
Murakame
Active Member
Don't forget the shenanigans with your bros lol! Anyway this is true and I just wanted to say that I've seen you make more of an effort than most people. When I first joined this site you hit me up like "GGs man lets play again sometime! XD" It made me feel welcomed. You're always the one like "yo welcome to FSD need somebody to play on PSN here's my ID!" even though you hate the lag probably more than anybody else. You were the guy hosting lobby matches with like 20 players from FSD when the game first came out. Lol you're the guy whose PSN ID popsup within 2 minutes of me logging on to PSN like "ChololatelNative invites you to play DOA 5". Lol you gave me Kokoro 101 too. And I appreciate all that because it makes it so easy to get into and become addicted to the game lol. It's stuff like this that makes me say online isn't meaningless because by doing all of these things you are demonstrating your love of the game and make people feel like they are apart of the community unlike the assholes who are like "if you don't play offline...fuck off you ain't worth shit to the community." And as the community grows and gets larger so will the amount of people who attend offline events. Really the only people that are a detriment to this community are those assholes and the people who have a scene that is reachable where they can have the amazing experience of meeting players in person yet sit on the couch like "Ah I don't feel like spending any money. >:/"