Release 6++ Gameplay Overhaul - Skies Of Vengeance 4.1 hotfix

[Rob]

I decided to keep my doa 6 in its vanilla version.

I normally don't get attached to mods, and this is no different, It feels wrong to play a modded version.

I support what revan is doing for the community and if it is revitalizing doa 6 in some form, great, is just a me problem

I support mods when they address issues like this:

sonichurricane.com

sonichurricane.com - Capcom vs SNK 2 game articles, combo and strategy videos, and artwork

sonichurricane.com

Or they are to fix bugs and/or clean up other jank.

Super Turbo is a great candidate for such a mod. And there are romhacks that fix stuff, like New Legacy, but that also comes with re-balancing of the roster. David Sirlin tried with HDR and his changes were hilariously awful. New Legacy's changes are far more sensible, and it's guided by a more solid, thoughtful approach on how to address characters who have really bad matchups in that game, for example. The guy in charge of the changes is extremely passionate about ST and it clearly shows with how good the game feels and plays. He's not axing stuff out of hate or adding things willy nilly. And it still plays like ST.

Which is exactly why 6++ should be met with deep suspicion because it is being done in a very haphazard way, without any evidence of careful consideration to balance or how one introduction (or exclusion) of a mechanic might cause a ripple effect that affects balance elsewhere. It's been asked over and over again what the thinking process is behind these changes but all I get is "IT'S A BETA!" "MeTeR BaD". That response doesn't instill confidence and it suggests this isn't worth taking seriously. (and why should we take the modder seriously to begin with?)

I don't think DOA6 is some sacred cow like Third Strike, but my position is if you want to mod the game, do minor changes, small tweaks at first, but still keep DOA6's identity. The biggest problems with 6 are things that revan can't fix, like the stages.

 

[Rev_an]

I support mods when they address issues like this:

sonichurricane.com

sonichurricane.com - Capcom vs SNK 2 game articles, combo and strategy videos, and artwork

sonichurricane.com

Or they are to fix bugs and/or clean up other jank.

Super Turbo is a great candidate for such a mod. And there are romhacks that fix stuff, like New Legacy, but that also comes with re-balancing of the roster. David Sirlin tried with HDR and his changes were hilariously awful. New Legacy's changes are far more sensible, and it's guided by a more solid, thoughtful approach on how to address characters who have really bad matchups in that game, for example. The guy in charge of the changes is extremely passionate about ST and it clearly shows with how good the game feels and plays. He's not axing stuff out of hate or adding things willy nilly. And it still plays like ST.

Which is exactly why 6++ should be met with deep suspicion because it is being done in a very haphazard way, without any evidence of careful consideration to balance or how one introduction (or exclusion) of a mechanic might cause a ripple effect that affects balance elsewhere. It's been asked over and over again what the thinking process is behind these changes but all I get is "IT'S A BETA!" "MeTeR BaD". That response doesn't instill confidence and it suggests this isn't worth taking seriously. (and why should we take the modder seriously to begin with?)

I don't think DOA6 is some sacred cow like Third Strike, but my position is if you want to mod the game, do minor changes, small tweaks at first, but still keep DOA6's identity. The biggest problems with 6 are things that revan can't fix, like the stages.

if you want every release to have tight character balancing you'd delay every step of the process by several months and you'd be asking me and whoever I could wrangle for that amount and intensity of testing to do the same work over and over again every time a system change is made.

Why the hell should we balance around the current invincible sidestep when when we know that's getting changed later? Should I have "balanced" sidestep bokuho only to cut it to test out the VF style evade dash mechanic?

Why the hell should we balance damage output when I'm still investigating juggle scaling and am open to changing the recommended life bar size?- this is literally the kind of consideration you're trying to say I don't do lmao

so yeah it's a beta, and you still don't seem to grasp what that means.

You don't even like core mechanics of DOA and want somebody to remove critical holds, so I don't think you have any credibility on evaluating "[the game's] identity". How much of this "identity" is just stuff that's bad and was done better in older games? You seemed to understand it when I explained previously that close-hit bounds really fuck up the juggle damage situation, so having identified what i'm calling a design mistake suppose I figure out how to make the close hit not work in juggles (but still happen on standing etc)... but 90% of doa 6 is close hit bound so some clown would surely accuse me of eroding the identity of the game!

 

[Rob]

Why should anyone trust you when it comes to balancing anything?

90%? Yeah, if you're playing Ayane.

"Stuff that's bad" meaning things you can't explain why it's bad. Like remove meter because you don't like it. Great argument! Meter is integral to the identity of the game. It's like if you removed all the meter mechanics from SC6. What do you have left? Certainly not SC6.

All that's offered here currently is a watered-down version of 5LR which was already watered-down from previous versions of 5. And the feedback so far on this update is that every character is busted except for Ayane (what a surprise!).

I never said for anyone to remove critical holds. All I said was the stun/holds system needs to change if DOA is going to be taken seriously at a competitive level. I want a more obvious skill gap. If you truly want this to play like the old games, you would have to change the stun game which probably ain't happening.

Also, the mod name should change into something else. Like DOA6M, "M" for meterless or modded. "++" suggests a significant improvement over DOA6, but you're not taking DOA6 as we know it and expanding it. It's misleading. (And yes, I am aware DOA++ was named as such because DOA1 was converted to C++ and everything else was already C++ to begin with. So the naming convention is even more silly)

 

[CFW]

I feel like at this point this entire argument is just out of boredom cuz at the end of the day nobody is paying for this mod it's just..... a mod. That anybody can play if they want to like this isn't some industry professional with years of experience putting out a product that costs money this is just some person modding a game. If you don't like the changes then like move on??? Like it's really so crazy the same argument being had on every page we get it already. It's a bit frustrating.

I try to come on here to check updates or notes or legitimate conversations on this thread but it's just yall and this goofy back and forth like either block each other for everybody sake or meet up in real life and throw hands.

 

[Rob]

Move on to what? I want to keep playing the game that's installed on my PC with other players. It's a terrible decision to introduce a different version for people to argue over playing. So now I might have to be forced to download this dogshit mod in order to get games? Fuck that.

This mod is being pushed as a replacement for the retail game. That's the issue Sotherius has and I completely agree. Let's divide an already incredibly niche playerbase on PC even more. Brilliant idea!

 

[Rev_an]

the people who are most enthusiastic about the mod had quit playing retail, so I find concerns about "dividing the community" rather overblown. there's no difference to you if somebody plays 6++ five times this month instead of not playing doa at all. You were never going to get a game with them anyway.

some people are even playing both versions and even uploading youtube videos with both. It takes five seconds to toggle the mod and maybe 15 seconds to restart the game if steam doesn't close the process correctly.

what division?

 

[Project Bokuho]

If all you guys are going to do is argue 24/7 over a mod, you're better off just taking it to the PMs. We don't need to see that shit every single day.

 

[Rob]

Because now the same people I would have been playing against on retail are in ++ lobbies or other regular retail players joining my lobby asking if it's ++. Only one person has switched versions after I told them I don't have the mod.

So yes, it has affected my ability to get games with others.

 

[CFW]

Move on to what? I want to keep playing the game that's installed on my PC with other players. It's a terrible decision to introduce a different version for people to argue over playing. So now I might have to be forced to download this dogshit mod in order to get games? Fuck that.

This mod is being pushed as a replacement for the retail game. That's the issue Sotherius has and I completely agree. Let's divide an already incredibly niche playerbase on PC even more. Brilliant idea!

No one is stopping you from doing that and you aren't forced to do anything. At the end of the day it's a video game and you and other people have reiterated your points time and time again. The time used to come on here to have the same arguments over and over could be spent looking for people who actually enjoy playing the normal version of the game, like it's really not that hard.

There was already someone that posted their legitimate concerns with the mod, played it, and ultimately chose to not play it and moved on. The people who have worked and are still working on this mod isn't forcing anyone to do anything. Download it if you want to or don't and move on.

 

[Rob]

I just pointed out that it is even more difficult now to get online games with others.

I didn't even come into this thread to start an argument or anything like that. I was just replying to what Soth posted.

And also my point was there may come a time where I am forced to install the mod if I have to join the only available lobbies on PC.

 

[lopedo]

Dividing a community would imply DOA6 has one. It doesn't. It has Hoodless who does weeklies, ONLINE weeklies, and the turnout speaks for itself. 99.9% of players did not like DOA 6. And the remaining amount out of an already tiny and niche group being "split up" doesn't actually matter, because the majority of them are on console anyway. On PC, there is zero reason to play the game without the mod. Yes, it's a lesser version of 5:LR, but apparently people would prefer to play a gimped 5 than touch the garbage that 6 is.

 

[Rob]

I never said community, I said playerbase. People actively playing the game.

And yeah there used to be a pretty active scene on PC that was easy to find games. How the fuck would you know since I've never seen you in any PC lobby since I've been playing the game. And I've been playing both DOA5/6 on PC daily for years now.

The game might be garbage but so is the mod. The game is worse now, which is a hilariously impressive feat.

 

[lopedo]

I'd know because I was one of many top players in 5 who said the game is trash and stopped playing. And the only reason I'm (sometimes) touching it now is because of this mod. You haven't seen me in a PC lobby because there simply aren't and weren't any around the time I still played this game. Everybody used ranked as a lobby because nobody could get a lobby to fill with even one more person. I don't know what lobbies you joined but I wasn't interested in red bar wifis that downloaded the free version.

 

[Full Cup Bounce]

You haven't seen me in a PC lobby because there simply aren't and weren't any around the time I still played this game. Everybody used ranked as a lobby because nobody could get a lobby to fill with even one more person. I don't know what lobbies you joined but I wasn't interested in red bar wifis that downloaded the free version.

That has to be the biggest crock of shit I've read on this entire topic of the state of DOA6 and this mod.
Nearly every night for the past three years, there have been open lobbies on PC with people on wired connections at around primetime NA. Ranked has never been used as a lobby on PC. You haven't been around, you don't know. Just because you might be a more skilled player than most people doesn't mean you know anything about the community around the game you abandoned.

 

[Rob]

Yeah you played the game a few weeks and dropped it. That's why I'm saying you have no fucking idea what you are talking about when it comes to people playing the game.

Lobbies had nothing but wired players. You have Russians in their own lobby with other EUs. Then you have NA players in their own lobbies. It was very rare to see anyone on a wifi connection.

All the 300 some friends I have in steam? All are dudes I've met playing on DOA6.

I could get off work and always find someone to play against who usually is 5 bar wired.

It's a casual game for me that I don't take seriously. I just want to press buttons, look at titties jiggle, and have a few laughs.

 

[lopedo]

So... go mash buttons on your crutch version and leave this version alone? I don't understand the problem here. You have a choice.

 

[Rob]

Oh I get it now, revan came crying to you that I keep shitting on his stupid mod and needs help from a DOA has-been to fight his battles. Go help him on how to fight as Ayane.

 

[lopedo]

El oh el. Did you just troll yourself for me? Sigh. They used to be more interesting.

 

[Rev_an]

Oh I get it now, revan came crying to you that I keep shitting on his stupid mod and needs help from a DOA has-been to fight his battles. Go help him on how to fight as Ayane.

i haven't talked to lopedo in a week. You should post your fanfic on Ao3 instead of this forum.

 

[Rev_an]

people wanting leifang h+k to juggle bound but it's kinda fast for that (diego's is the only legit one) and juggle bound moves that can hit so low look kinda gross as we now see sometimes from kasumi.

adding juggle bound to a bunch of launchers that didn't have it before also doesn't seem good, the movies have gotten too long and making all these juggle enders the same would reduce variety rather than increase it.

if i could i'd make all juggle bounds be or start from highs but e.g. rig's mid and whatever else that can kinda scoop you into a juggle bound isn't enough of a problem to justify the time looking at every character and finding suitable high or high-mid strings