6++ Gameplay Overhaul

[Rob]

@grap3fruitman I understand the tools available limit the scope of the mod, however, if you can't do minor tweaks that everyone agrees to, then just leave it alone. He swiftly removed meter without ever thinking about the repercussions of it. His argument is simply "well I don't want to bother balancing it so I'm just going to get rid of it entirely." Which also makes no sense.

Even if revan had the tools to limit meter gain, that meter would still have been removed because of his personal feelings about it. And it's very obvious that DOA6 doesn't work without meter.

It's hilarious like so you won't try to tweak meter but you WILL tweak the SSA that was def made with DOA6 in mind. That SSA in this mod is so spammable it's not even funny.

Perhaps, it's just that DoA is a poorly designed game.

TN just keeps trying to band-aid fixes to a poorly designed system when it should all be thrown in the trash and redone from scratch.

 

[Rob]

i fucken hate marketing but making the game feel subtly different in a few really specific situations that don't even apply to every character and would take over an hour of play time to notice unless your were labbing those specific interactions would get no attention, no downloads, and no youtube videos from people who literally never talked to me before this project.

So here's the real reason for the mod, to get 15 minutes of fame lol.

It's also hilarious how this is the same guy, before this mod came out, didn't care about Emery's opinion and scoffed at the idea that he was pandering to the "content" creators.

 

[Rev_an]

So here's the real reason for the mod, to get 15 minutes of fame lol.

It's also hilarious how this is the same guy, before this mod came out, didn't care about Emery's opinion and scoffed at the idea that he was pandering to the "content" creators.

rob everyone agrees that raijin damage needed to be buffed... and then everyone agreed "whoa not that much"

most things people do have more than one reason behind them. If i was promoting myself i would be promoting my twitch channel or my youtube channel which....

oh wait, I haven't done that. I've never said that i stream at stop making shit up you sad clown. Hell i didn't even even make the "how to install" video on my own youtube channel.

I understand the tools available limit the scope of the mod

obvious lies. troll better next time. maybe you can pay lopedo for lessons.

 

[Matt Ponton]

dead or alive 5 has comeback supers

Honestly, one thing I had discussed with the team was making them unlock at 100% HP while keeping the once-per-round lock. At the time though, the once-per-round lock was just implemented and the game had gone gold so while they felt the change would be better, they worried about making the change so suddenly at launch after all the marketing showed how it was implemented. By the time Ultimate came out though, they either sadly forgot about it or they felt most people still playing the game were fine with the mechanic as a comeback.

Personally, I wouldn't mind trying out a build of DOA6 where the meter is at 100% at the start of each round but you can't gain meter throughout the round, if only for the experimentation of it.

you gain about 1/3 of meter on block compared to on-hit and 1/9 as the blocking player. I don't remember the rate for taking damage.

Last I checked the gauge value should be a move attribute per individual strike, but if it isn't, it is a percentage of the damage value (50% for Fatal Attacks, 33% for Normal Attacks). However, the issue is with the underlying system that controls how that gain is divvied out. Whenever gauge is awarded to a player, the opponent gets 50% of that gain, and if an attack was blocked then the attacking player gets 50% of the guage they would have gotten had it hit (and then blocking player gets half of that). There are debates to be had on how this algorithm should be changed, but since mod tools don't support changing such values or algorithm at this time, any discussions would be simply pointless and theory fighter banter.

the SSA that was def made with DOA6 in mind.

SA was made to not cost meter with DOA6 in mind. They only threw it on there in a reckless patch post-release because (1) players weren't learning to punish it properly, (2) throws wouldn't beat the SA start-up until an offline only patch released a day before, and (3) players were using it as combo extensions from a bound. Personally speaking, I think SA costing meter should have never been done, and I feel it was fine if they had just left it at allowing throws to connect on SA startup. I think the two hit status changes Rev has done in his mod are also for the better and would have been the preferred changes I'd had have over metered SA: Wall Detection removed, and being knocked into a down state. I wouldn't mind experimenting with the return of the DOA5 SS options though.

 

[Rev_an]

Honestly, one thing I had discussed with the team was making them unlock at 100% HP while keeping the once-per-round lock. At the time though, the once-per-round lock was just implemented and the game had gone gold so while they felt the change would be better, they worried about making the change so suddenly at launch after all the marketing showed how it was implemented. By the time Ultimate came out though, they either sadly forgot about it or they felt most people still playing the game were fine with the mechanic as a comeback.

Personally, I wouldn't mind trying out a build of DOA6 where the meter is at 100% at the start of each round but you can't gain meter throughout the round, if only for the experimentation of it.


Last I checked the gauge value should be a move attribute per individual strike, but if it isn't, it is a percentage of the damage value (50% for Fatal Attacks, 33% for Normal Attacks). However, the issue is with the underlying system that controls how that gain is divvied out. Whenever gauge is awarded to a player, the opponent gets 50% of that gain, and if an attack was blocked then the attacking player gets 50% of the guage they would have gotten had it hit (and then blocking player gets half of that). There are debates to be had on how this algorithm should be changed, but since mod tools don't support changing such values or algorithm at this time, any discussions would be simply pointless and theory fighter banter.


SA was made to not cost meter with DOA6 in mind. They only threw it on there in a reckless patch post-release because (1) players weren't learning to punish it properly, (2) throws wouldn't beat the SA start-up until an offline only patch released a day before, and (3) players were using it as combo extensions from a bound. Personally speaking, I think SA costing meter should have never been done, and I feel it was fine if they had just left it at allowing throws to connect on SA startup. I think the two hit status changes Rev has done in his mod are also for the better and would have been the preferred changes I'd had have over metered SA: Wall Detection removed, and being knocked into a down state. I wouldn't mind experimenting with the return of the DOA5 SS options though.

yeah it not being specifically a comeback mechanic would be an improvement. shame they didn't talk to you sooner.

if you like LUA i think you could CE your way into modifying the meter value in memory and preventing it from increasing, or only allowing it to increase for one frame idk enough about all that shit

I haven't seen anything that's very obviously "meter rate" or "add meter" in the hit table or various move infos. somebody who was investigating that could start by seeing if PB and PL give you meter, I learned a little bit but nothing usable about how juggle scaling is handled from looking at that, see the youtube video i posted from my channel that's just some technical bullshit that i don't expect anyone to care about.

since i'm not a scrub i looked into optimizing meter as a player a while ago and yeah I was seeing a lot of 1/3s values when i tried to see if there was some incentive to change your play to deny the opponent meter gain, and iirc jab strings give them more relative meter than like a big guardbreak because of how the rounding works.

some doa 5 side attacks stun you, which seems like a lot to me. if that stun is SE-able into only being advantage then that seems vaguely similar to my design/thought process where if you get up it's "just" advantage (i said previously to someone that making the side attack +10 no-stun isn't much different than what happens if you tech) and if you don't there's some chance that they can react to the animation and do a ground hit, which is less obnoxious to my mind than being in a stun that 90% of player (including me!) wouldn't SE out of consistently, but I can see people who love laying on the floor not liking it.

I still need to see somebody good playing super lame with side attack against another good player on a low-tier tracking character but it just hasn't come up in any of the streams or youtube videos i've watched,

 

[Rob]

rob everyone agrees that raijin damage needed to be buffed... and then everyone agreed "whoa not that much"

No shit sherlock. You don't need other people to agree to how insanely stupid having Raijin do 200 dmg and 301 damage off HiC is.

Yeah and I'm the one who is trolling lol

obvious lies. troll better next time. maybe you can pay lopedo for lessons.

Who?

I already knew you were limited in what can be done and my suggestions are outside of your purview. I'm not expecting you to drop 20 new stages in the game.

What you can and can't do with the tools available was never my point.

 

[Rob]

SA was made to not cost meter with DOA6 in mind. They only threw it on there in a reckless patch post-release because (1) players weren't learning to punish it properly, (2) throws wouldn't beat the SA start-up until an offline only patch released a day before, and (3) players were using it as combo extensions from a bound. Personally speaking, I think SA costing meter should have never been done, and I feel it was fine if they had just left it at allowing throws to connect on SA startup. I think the two hit status changes Rev has done in his mod are also for the better and would have been the preferred changes I'd had have over metered SA: Wall Detection removed, and being knocked into a down state. I wouldn't mind experimenting with the return of the DOA5 SS options though.

I wasn't around then but from all the people I know who were, nobody thought that the SSA was fine when it was not tied to meter.

Everyone complained about it.

They said it wasn't easy to punish and people spammed the hell out of it randomly making it incredibly difficult to establish any offense.
Plus, it being able to trigger DZs was also a problem.

From what it looks like to me, it wasn't so much a "git gud" issue as it was just an incredibly dumb random wild card your opponent had if you were a linear character. Like panic low hold.

 

[Rob]

Now for me personally, I think SSA is a fundamentally bad mechanic.

It just doesn't fit with DOA mechanically and TN has never got it right.

Sidesteps should be useless in DOA if we had a good freestep (and yes, revan, I know you can't buff it).

Oh and it doesn't help that DOA's tracking is insane.

 

[deathofaninja]

How many current 3D fighting games actually utilize meter mechanics? Tekken only uses it for it cast of characters which are from 2D games and subjectively, we can all argue whether it's good/bad considering with meter/rage, those characters can get some pretty busted combo's (although in Tekken's current state, there are plenty of non-2D characters who are just as scary with meter mechanics). Then there's Soul Calibur VI, which arguably implements meter, imo, the best. I still find Soul Calibur VI to be one of the most exciting competitive games to watch at a high level because of the excitement the meter system brings to the game.

Personally, I think TN should have taken a similar approach with meter. Meter in DOA slows the game down rather than adding excitement but for some characters, it's needed. Perhaps, it's just that DoA is a poorly designed game.

 

[deathofaninja]

Now for me personally, I think SSA is a fundamentally bad mechanic.

It just doesn't fit with DOA mechanically and TN has never got it right.

Sidesteps should be useless in DOA if we had a good freestep (and yes, revan, I know you can't buff it).

Oh and it doesn't help that DOA's tracking is insane.

At the end of the day there are good players and bad players; people that get the system and can win tournaments because of it and people that can't wrap their head around it.

I wasn't around then but from all the people I know who were, nobody thought that the SSA was fine when it was not tied to meter.

Everyone complained about it.

They said it wasn't easy to punish and people spammed the hell out of it randomly making it incredibly difficult to establish any offense.
Plus, it being able to trigger DZs was also a problem.

From what it looks like to me, it wasn't so much a "git gud" issue as it was just an incredibly dumb random wild card your opponent had if you were a linear character. Like panic low hold.

When did you start playing DOA?

 

[Rob]

So I just found out revan gave NiCO a 4F teleport?

lol

lmao

Oh but it's on the list of things to remove so its ok.

Dude has no idea what he is doing. Can someone with a modicum of sense take over this project please?

 

[Radiance]

Sorry, I don't understand this post lol. Are you saying you don't like DOA6++? because I was referencing his comment on "meter generally being bad in 3D fighters" when two of the most popular 3D fighters have done a fairly good job at implementing meter mechanics. It was an honest question of why is it that meter in DoA doesn't work? Did TN just fail or is DoA just poorly designed? Why is meter not as fun or exciting as it is in Soul Calibur or Tekken? I think Rev is using his experience with DOA6 to generalize meter "being bad" in other 3D fighters. Keep in mind, I've played DOA5 competitively (many times offline with hoodless), and DOA4. I know how to play DoA without meter (better than you do).

 

[WAZAAAAA]

yea i have just a tiiiny little bit of feedback to provide lmao

DOA6 flawed mechanics

This is the "sequel" to the DOA5LR flawed mechanics thread. I'm not going to repeat the points of the previous thread. As always the main focus is about shedding some light on some imperfect fighting mechanics that could be potentially improved upon. INDEX 1. Extra hurtboxes and pushboxes...

www.freestepdodge.com

 

[deathofaninja]

Sorry, I don't understand this post lol. Are you saying you don't like DOA6++? because I was referencing his comment on "meter generally being bad in 3D fighters" when two of the most popular 3D fighters have done a fairly good job at implementing meter mechanics. It was an honest question of why is it that meter in DoA doesn't work? Did TN just fail or is DoA just poorly designed? Why is meter not as fun or exciting as it is in Soul Calibur or Tekken? I think Rev is using his experience with DOA6 to generalize meter "being bad" in other 3D fighters. Keep in mind, I've played DOA5 competitively (many times offline with hoodless), and DOA4. I know how to play DoA without meter (better than you do).

Oh, is that where we are going? You don't understand the post, but you have a lot to say. Honestly, it was just a joke. The last time I fought you was in DOA5U and I whooped your ass. LOL BUT no I don't claim to be God at DOA, nor do I need to be good at it to do what I like doing in this community.

And yes, we know you fought Hoodless offline and yes, you've gone out of your way to say you're better than me before. You definitely get on my nerves, but I do have some admiration for your attitude. A+ there.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Can someone with a modicum of sense take over this project please?

I mean, he's one of only two who seems to want to use the available tools to make the game the way he wants to play it.

If you don't like his version, and you want to play with your own changes, you can make your own 6++ mod. What's stopping you?

 

[Rev_an]

How many current 3D fighting games actually utilize meter mechanics? Tekken only uses it for it cast of characters which are from 2D games and subjectively, we can all argue whether it's good/bad considering with meter/rage, those characters can get some pretty busted combo's (although in Tekken's current state, there are plenty of non-2D characters who are just as scary with meter mechanics). Then there's Soul Calibur VI, which arguably implements meter, imo, the best. I still find Soul Calibur VI to be one of the most exciting competitive games to watch at a high level because of the excitement the meter system brings to the game.

Personally, I think TN should have taken a similar approach with meter. Meter in DOA slows the game down rather than adding excitement but for some characters, it's needed. Perhaps, it's just that DoA is a poorly designed game.

I think SCVI is worse than SCII and SCIIIAE for what i think are obvious reasons considering the other opinions i've expressed publicly.

At least as an early result meter seems to have made DOA rounds faster, not shorter, going by the longer round times we're seeing on 6++, but I don't anybody is doing a rigorous measurement of that. It's odd to me to praise the game with a universal "get off me button" and timer freeze mechanic on the opposite basis because that stuff literally makes the round time longer.


But this is a DOA forum and I made the systems choices I made because no-meter has a proven record and I don't have a boss telling me to copy tekken.

 

[raididiot]

I don't mean to derail or anything, but I like the mod and I don't care to join the discussion about meter. I just want to make suggestions on stuff.

I think it's interesting that teleports can be added to phase 4's moves, and I was trying to think of moves that could benefit from a teleport on hit (since, well, we can see just how useful teleport on BT 8k is).

I just did some light testing and I think my favorite would be chifu/nagikaze on her special wakeup (H+K, face down, toward opponent). Dang thing's got like 24 disadvantage on block, couldn't get any real followups on hit either.

Same thing with Kasumi, she could get her teleport stance if it hits (not sure how difficult that would be). Good idea? Terrible idea?

 

[Rev_an]

I don't mean to derail or anything, but I like the mod and I don't care to join the discussion about meter. I just want to make suggestions on stuff.

I think it's interesting that teleports can be added to phase 4's moves, and I was trying to think of moves that could benefit from a teleport on hit (since, well, we can see just how useful teleport on BT 8k is).

I just did some light testing and I think my favorite would be chifu/nagikaze on her special wakeup (H+K, face down, toward opponent). Dang thing's got like 24 disadvantage on block, couldn't get any real followups on hit either.

Same thing with Kasumi, she could get her teleport stance if it hits (not sure how difficult that would be). Good idea? Terrible idea?

i have to double check the hit-reaction on phase's wakeup but that sounds like a great idea, that might even sneak into update 1 edit: i coded it up for update 1, and barring some unforeseen consequences, it'll be in!

BT 8k is a work in progress, there are other changes to it that i prototyped and wasn't happy with like making it juggle bound or force-tech. next up to check is making 33p bt 8k a string and/or making other changes to the hit reaction so there's a point to the move.

that said, it's OK for stuff to be niche, like i always point to lisa and ayane's sidestep p+k in doa 5 that is so niche most people didn't even know about it.



kasumi's TP situation is more complicated to program, i'll let that one sit for a while but it sounds acceptable. no promises

 

[crapoZK]

All I’m saying is this:

If you have to bring up people’s skills (irrelevant), lie about statements from other pro players (that we’re all talking to - they’re not celebrities, also irrelevant to bring up) and resort to name calling, you’ve lost both the plot and the argument that you’ve so desperately trying to win for so long.

Just agree to disagree at this point, because it’s going on week 3 of this discussion going absolutely nowhere.

“CrAzYStEAdY said this, KiLlY said that, XCaliBuRBlAD3Z agrees with me! I’ve beaten HoODlESs before!” is adding nothing to the conversation and the nuance has been lost.

Not necessarily.

You guys are just not used to playing DOA where the stun game isn't the cornerstone and not as heavily focused.

Someone once said DOA4 has collectively rotted the brains of DOA players, I think there's truth to that.

I was going to ignore this post but since I have time today -

Don’t “you guys” me and lump me into some kind of box when you have zero idea of what’s beyond my profile picture. My most played DOA game ever was DOA2U which has the best stun game ever, STILL had stuns and holds, better balanced than DOA4 onwards (with the exception of the low hold and hold activation frames). They’ve been here for 22+ years.

I know what I prefer. But I also know WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF THE MOD what can be done, so I’m not going to suggest shit like “Make it like DOA2” - as much as I would like to, we don’t know how to do so. Most I can suggest is removing stuns from attacks that pushback too far regarding that idea, but I’m waiting for Update 1 of 6++ before I do that.

Say what you want about the community but when you speak to me about me you’re not going to generalise. You’ve been serially projecting and it’s getting annoying.

When I say “DOA without stuns and holds would be shit” I mean removing a system that’s been in place for this long would be weird / bad for the game because we can’t even imagine what the franchise would be without it (DOA1 exists but tell me when the last time you enjoyed that was)

THIS is what I mean, you reading that and basically placing “DOA without the DOA4 stun game would be bad” in my mouth and then making a statement such as DOA4 rotting my brain like I didn’t go back to playing DOA2U and play it for years until DOA5 dropped because I didn’t like it is some wild shit.

You literally don’t know me.

Then throw the stun game in the trash can if you think it's capricious, rather than letting people get "lucky" with their holds. DOA5/6 have been band-aiding DOA4 for far too long.

Lucky holds have been in the game since their inception. With such a system in place it’s just going to happen. Fighting games will fighting game.

“I” can’t do anything regarding the stun game since believe it or not - I don’t have any control in the mod and “I” am not working on the game.

“I” can only think what I think, and yes, I do think the stun game is capricious. Does that mean I can do anything about it?

Make holds be risky and dangerous in stun. Encourage reads.

I’ve been saying this actively for 10+ years. There’s still a risk element to the holds and you know what the risks are so I won’t explain.

Realistically the fix to this is reducing the chances you get to hold in stun (DOA2U/3 stun game) with less active frames and higher recovery frames, with a bigger HiC Throw window.

But such a fix will take months to figure out so somethings are best left untouched until TN miraculously decides to pick up DOA again for 7.

DOA is flawed but even if we took the time to fix all of them there’d still be more flaws to find. That’s simply too much work for one guy.

Now I’m done lol.

 

[crapoZK]

Why is meter not as fun or exciting as it is in Soul Calibur or Tekken?

I can’t speak for SC but meter is not fun in Tekken. It’s actually just not, at least not anymore.

Fighting against the 2D characters in T7 has been the most frustrating thing in the game since 2017 but luckily these days you seldom run into Akuma and Eliza players. Geese is still running amok in the higher ranks but he can be annoying and used to be kinda broken because of his metered capabilities. Competitively there are better non-metered characters to use now, but this doesn’t mean meter is balanced correctly here because it’s not an integral part of the system like how DOA6’s is.

Either way, the TK community’s been rallying against meter and 2D characters for a couple years now, so if we see it return in T8 it’s because Bamco wants it there and definitely have the funds to warrant tuning it, not because the players like it. I’m not gonna die if that day comes.

It’s not the same case here. Expecting revan to operate like a 20+ person balance team is still the one of the wildest takes from the people opposed to 6++.

I don’t like to speak for people but it’s been said too many times here that refining the meter would be great, but it isn’t known how to be done so… yeah.

TN just failed with the meter, DOA isn’t that poorly designed.

If it were up to me fixing meter (Let’s say I had access to a dev team and worked at TN) I would:

• Reduce meter gain by 25%
• Not have it gain when attacking
• Only allow Break Holding on Fatal Stuns
• Reduce Break Holds active frames
• Increase recovery frames on Break Hold
• Not allow Break Holds to catch lows, but have lows knock enemies out the stun threshold
• Have armor so you still take damage when Break Blowing instead of straight up sabaki’ing attacks
• Not make sidestep attacks metered or include DOA5 SSAs as a more risky non-metered option so that SS S is actually worth using for meter with all the perks it had.

But that’s long to find out and fix with numeric code, so if I was one man with a mod I’d just remove that shit too.