World War 3: The war with Ukraine.

[Onryoki]

Honestly the people supporting Russia through this war, honestly are just as disgusting as the pigs killing these people. Honestly it doesn’t even matter what “side”someone is on. Killing innocent people and taking someone else’s land by force is wrong. Even blind people can see that that’s wrong.

 

[Helonomi]

Here's that article about how the R/U war is affecting surrogates:

Ukraine’s Surrogacy Industry Has Put Women in Impossible Positions

When your job is carrying a baby for someone else, you can’t leave it behind.

www.theatlantic.com

The more you know. Well, anyway, cheers. Cya tomorrow.

 

[Rikuto]

Exactly.

‘Not One Inch Eastward:’ How the War in Ukraine Could Have Been Prevented Decades Ago

Blake Fleetwood writes about how decades of broken American promises led to the current crisis in Ukraine.

scheerpost.com

This could have been prevented by not expanding NATO and listening to Russia, yet they betrayed what they said. NATO influence kept creeping eastward wtih every new US president despite assurances they wouldn't.

Don't back a rat into a corner and blame it when it bites you.

Do you honestly think NATO (which is a defensive alliance held together by rules) would ever launch an unprovoked invasion of Russia? If you say yes, you are living in an alternate universe. We gain NOTHING from doing that, and the fact we haven't put boots on the ground in Ukraine is proof enough of this.

And if you say no, then it is proof that Putin simply wants to go empire building. And considering he keeps saying that Ukraine belongs to Russia, I wonder which it is.

 

[Anura]

Honestly it doesn’t even matter what “side”someone is on. Killing innocent people and taking someone else’s land by force is wrong. Even blind people can see that that’s wrong.

The problem lies with preventing it since you can't expect everybody to do the right thing.

Don't back a rat into a corner and blame it when it bites you.

Except there were many ways in which Russia, through diplomacy, could have delayed Ukraine's accession to the EU and NATO. Some of Russia's leading trade partners are members of those organizations. And Ukraine wasn't the most appealing potential candidate.

Discreetly, the US and other NATO nations agree that membership is not in the cards for Ukraine as a practical matter for some time. It has long been one of the most corrupt nations in Europe with a kleptocratic legal and judicial system, a corrupt economy, a fragile democracy and a crude defense sector.

They could have convinced some member nations to stall the process for years.

 

[deathofaninja]

What does that have to do with what I posted. NATO's expansion around the borders of Russia, an adversary, is aggressive. Both Russia and NATO want to expand their influence, so there's a power struggle, and neither side is acting in Ukraine's interests. Russia was very clear regarding their intentions and NATO gave them no plausible way out, so we have war.

Please don't spin this as me giving justification for the invasion. I condemn it. But I can do that while also pointing out that the blame is not so straightforward.

You're saying that both are to blame - Rikuto has already demonstrated in conversation that he's seeing it from both sides.

I think he also sees the corruption and violent nature of Putin. The man has basically threatened the livelihood of the planet, lead a plethora of his own people to their deaths with poor strategy. When he is humiliated in war combat, he doubles down with explosive shells, vacuum bombs and God knows what else he will drop on the planet.

Putin might be good by his people and Russia (even though he's arresting them for having free minds and destroying Russia with what the residents can enjoy) but Putin is not necessarily a good thing at all for the rest of the planet. Call it fearmongering, but I have truly been scared to think of what he could surprise the USA with for years.

 

[Rikuto]

What does that have to do with what I posted. NATO's expansion around the borders of Russia, an adversary, is aggressive. Both Russia and NATO want to expand their influence, so there's a power struggle, and neither side is acting in Ukraine's interests. Russia was very clear regarding their intentions and NATO gave them no plausible way out, so we have war.

Please don't spin this as me giving justification for the invasion. I condemn it. But I can do that while also pointing out that the blame is not so straightforward.

Glad to hear you also condemn it, but what it has to do with your post is that if a normal person can make these deductions, so can Putin. Yet he chose invasion anyway. So, no. It wouldn't have been avoided. That's my point. He is empire building, because he laments the fall of the Soviet Union and wants to turn back the clock.

Putin might be good by his people and Russia (even though he's arresting them for having free minds and destroying Russia with what the residents can enjoy) but Putin is not necessarily a good thing at all for the rest of the planet. Call it fearmongering, but I have truly been scared to think of what he could surprise the USA with for years.

Hungry citizens are rarely loyal citizens. That economy is getting slammed and it's going to get a lot worse for them over the next few years. I think he's on his way out. As for Russia's military, the only thing that worries me is Putin having an existential crisis and pressing the nuclear button. He's already said that if his Russia does not exist, he doesn't need the rest of the world.

The rest of his military though.... Honestly, I expected more. Shelling apartment buildings, schools, hospitals, and nuclear plants? It's pathetic. If they are having this much trouble against Ukraine, despite overwhelming force, Russia's military is nothing to worry about. I thought they were better than this but with the faucet effectively cut off for their military budget now, they have zero chance winning any kind of conventional war with the rest of the world.

 

[Helonomi]

I spent longer on this post than I wanted and I couldn't figure out where to shorten it so it's really really long, thank you for your patience. So I'm more interested in "the way" people communicate with each other when discussing the Russian invasion of Ukraine, so that's been my angle when looking at it:

Spoiler

Something to clarify is that I have no problems with the decision of the Site Moderators/Administrators to keep this thread up. What I will be breaking down is the way @deathofaninja responded. You see this type of response all over the internet, the way in which they responded is a form of gaslighting, a manipulation technique. When someone is gaslighting you, sometimes they choose to twist your words in a way that makes you doubt the validity of what you said.

Comment #13 was me:
-I asked that this current thread be closed and if possible be replaced by a more general international news/politcs thread. I gave two reasons for this request:

1)The title of this thread sounded like fearmongering. Meaning it was unnecessarily misleading. And it is misleading because Russia has only invaded Ukraine, the situation has not escalated to a world war.

2)No one participating in the thread at the time had listed any sources for the claims they were making. And one could already see the consequences of that by reading comments #1 through #12.

Comment #14, deathofaninja took it upon themself to respond to my comment, they turned up the gas and so it began: Apparently I wanted this thread closed because I was worried that if it stayed open it would affect the outcome of the invasion. I was also asked if two videos, that they linked for the first time in this thread, were fearmongering even though my concern with fearmongering stemmed from the title of this thread. I did not and have not watched those videos, what did me pointing out the fact that the title of this thread was unnecessarily misleading have to do with videos that were posted after that fact? Despite all the fumes, at least their reasoning for being against a general int. news/politics thread was relevant to my comment.

I googled "is Putin gaslighting" and these articles looked interesting to me:

Putin is gaslighting us all | Ahmed Baba

Both Russia and the US have engaged in psychological warfare even as troops fail to advance into Ukraine as expected

www.google.com

Editorial: Putin is gaslighting the world

To negotiate at the point of a gun would validate Russia’s violation of international...

www.timesunion.com

I haven't read them yet but I thought it was funny, in a dark way, that one man has the cunning to manipulate the entire world. Anyway, see you again maybe tomorrow, but definitely Tuesday. Farewell.

 

[Seigen]

 

[Radiance]

The title itself is filled with gaslighting, can't imagine the BS of the actual video. Meanwhile Putin is targeting residential zones and Hospitals now in Chernihiv, leaving dozens of innocent civilians dead. Put that's somehow another countries fault. Anyone capable of defending this nonsense needs to have their humanity checked.

 

[Seigen]

Don't worry, it's exactly what your government wanted to happen. Go sing a peace song in front of the Russian embassy now.

 

[deathofaninja]

Don't worry, it's exactly what your government wanted to happen. Go sing a peace song in front of the Russian embassy now.

I don't think any government wants a ticking time bomb (Putin) delivered to their door, so I disagree. Some are opting out of singing and using eggs instead. I don't blame them. Peace talks don't work with people that shell others, vacuum bomb others and disregard a child's life.

If anything, Putin got what he wanted. It's gotten to a point where we have provided Ukraine with stingers and javelins. Which I would consider wild interference. Now I guess Putin can let us see "what we've never seen before."

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[Onryoki]

The title itself is filled with gaslighting, can't imagine the BS of the actual video. Meanwhile Putin is targeting residential zones and Hospitals now in Chernihiv, leaving dozens of innocent civilians dead. Put that's somehow another countries fault. Anyone capable of defending this nonsense needs to have their humanity checked.

Lol, you expect Seigen to have sense of Empathy? he has proven quite many times how he lacks any sort of empathy. He likes to defend the Russian Hitler too much.

Don't worry, it's exactly what your government wanted to happen. Go sing a peace song in front of the Russian embassy now.

Sure, we all were waiting for a 5 foot 6 Russian dictator who's threatening with nuclear weapons (which affects the entire planet as a whole). This war senseless in every way.

 

[Rikuto]

So in todays news, Russia has violated the ceasefire that was intended for civilians to escape select areas and is shelling them into oblivion. Nothing like the smell of war crimes in the morning. I'm sure this too is perfectly justified by the pro-Putin stans. Or maybe they'll just pretend its fake news, who knows. Russian citizens don't exactly appear ready and willing to actually seek non-state information sources. Putin has also gone on the record saying that he considers sanctions to be a declaration of war..... does that mean we have permission to shoot him yet?

 

[Onryoki]

So in todays news, Russia has violated the ceasefire that was intended for civilians to escape select areas and is shelling them into oblivion. Nothing like the smell of war crimes in the morning. I'm sure this too is perfectly justified by the pro-Putin stans. Or maybe they'll just pretend its fake news, who knows. Russian citizens don't exactly appear ready and willing to actually seek non-state information sources. Putin has also gone on the record saying that he considers sanctions to be a declaration of war..... does that mean we have permission to shoot him yet?

I hope he gets shot. The news in my country showed how a 13 month year old baby died due to a nearby grenade. I can’t believe people are actually defending Putin even after all the things he has done and said.

 

[Rikuto]

Some are like Seigen and simply don't care about what happens to other people. Some hate the west and want it to fail, regardless of the cost to human life. And then some Russians want so very desperately to believe in their country so badly that they are willing to believe what they are told, even when they know in their hearts something is wrong with it. This is not a Russian exclusive problem, there are plenty of Americans who also believe we can do no wrong, but it just isn't true. For a lot of people faith in their country is like faith in God. It's an emotional thing, not a logical thing, and it isn't easily broken.

Edit: Spooky Video for the day. You can see just how few fucks are given, even when journalists properly identify themselves and are able to communicate with their attackers.

 

[Onryoki]

I saw that video earlier today, I can’t imagine how afraid these reporters must’ve felt during the shooting. The fact that this is just the beginning (which is up to Putin) is just scary. There have been over 350 civilian deaths since the start of the war. This is a crazy amount of people to just have died for literally no reason.

 

[Seigen]

Some are like Seigen and simply don't care about what happens to other people.

Easy there buddy, get off your moral high horse. If the Americans (and the West in general) care so much about Ukraine's safety and integrity they should have been more open to Russia's demands and reach a diplomatic agreement regarding NATO's expansion. War is ugly, you know. But it's easy to be dismissive, condenscending and uncompromising when your attitude only affects a distant country about which you don't really give a shit and which you just want to use for your own selfish interests.

I find it funny that Americans are more hostile towards Russians than me as a Romanian, living right next to Ukraine. And trust me, Romanians are no fans of Russians, they fucked us for 200 years. But we know them. After the fall of the Soviet Union they just wanted to get closer to the West, have good relations and do business. But the US decided to treat them as an enemy still. This being the case, Russia has every right to view America and NATO's expansion as a threat as well. All this BS about Russia wanting to conquer E Europe and reenact the Soviet Union is just low quality propaganda.

The issue is not how much I care or not about what's happening in Ukraine and whether this war is good or bad (I think it's bad), but what led to this war. And it's hard to discuss this with ppl full of anti Russian bias, bad faith and self righteousness.

 

[Seigen]

 

[Onryoki]

Easy there buddy, get off your moral high horse. If the Americans (and the West in general) care so much about Ukraine's safety and integrity they should have been more open to Russia's demands and reach a diplomatic agreement regarding NATO's expansion. War is ugly, you know. But it's easy to be dismissive, condenscending and uncompromising when your attitude only affects a distant country about which you don't really give a shit and which you just want to use for your own selfish interests.

I find it funny that Americans are more hostile towards Russians than me as a Romanian, living right next to Ukraine. And trust me, Romanians are no fans of Russians, they fucked us for 200 years. But we know them. After the fall of the Soviet Union they just wanted to get closer to the West, have good relations and do business. But the US decided to treat them as an enemy still. This being the case, Russia has every right to view America and NATO's expansion as a threat as well. All this BS about Russia wanting to conquer E Europe and reenact the Soviet Union is just low quality propaganda.

The issue is not how much I care or not about what's happening in Ukraine and whether this war is good or bad (I think it's bad), but what led to this war. And it's hard to discuss this with ppl full of anti Russian bias, bad faith and self righteousness.

You’re the one that’s on a high horse here. The west and the Americans don’t have to open to Russia’s demands, especially when it’s Russia’s entire purpose to take over Ukraine. Idk what propaganda you’re reading, but from what I see, it’s Russia killing civilians and blowing up cities. It’s good to see you’re recognising that war is bad, but the fact you keep trying to defend a dictator is unnerving.

Rikuto has acknowledged before that the US also made mistakes, but I get why the US and the west are hostile towards Russia when he keeps threatening and trying to take over other countries. The government run by putin is literally under controlled media, and he arrests his own civilians for voicing they’re against the war.

 

[Seigen]

The west and the Americans don’t have to open to Russia’s demands, especially when it’s Russia’s entire purpose to take over Ukraine....

You're too dumb for this subject, yet you insist in expressing yourself. Yes, the West didn't have to be more open to Russia's demands and resolve the issue diplomatically, it can do whatever it wants. Now go and fight in Ukraine against the Russians, they accept foreigners too, just (friendly piece of advice) don't tell them you're gay.