DOA6 Debate: Does DOA6 need more difficult/High level execution characters?

[Onryoki]

I made this thread because of a recent status of mine sparked the conversation whether or not character should be harder in their execution or not.

I personally think we should het higher execution characters because low effort high reward is just incredibly stupid.

 

[Brute]

Harder than what?

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

I made this thread because of a recent status of mine sparked the conversation whether or not character should be harder in their execution or not.

I personally think we should het higher execution characters because low effort high reward is just incredibly stupid.

Honestly I feel that's a real dangerous precedent to follow in a fighting game of all things. Overwatch stems from a similar problem in that you have people not a fan of how characters who have low difficulty can easily change the course of matches wholesale moreso than the high difficulty characters but atleast that can be excused usually due to the kits and it being a FPS.

In terms of a fighting game, trying to force characters who are low effort to not have any real decent reward seems like a completely batshit idea that would only further make people leave the game.
Shoto Characters in SF is renowned for the fact that for the most part, they are low risk until you get to know them but still have pretty decent to good gains depending on the patches and otherwise with only a few shotos being more difficult due to various things added to their kits after that(Akuma, Evil Ryu, Oni).
This also happened in SC in which Ivy has gotten easier and easier to play throughout the series(atleast to Ivy pros) to the point most of her difficulty is just not there anymore(someone will correct me on this if I'm wrong but I heard that alot from SC fans).

You shouldn't be trying to punish characters who are low risk because it's virtually something Itagaki would do(remember that people lambasted Itagaki saying that Wrestlers shouldn't beat Ninjas? You are basically saying something similar).

 

[KasumiLover]

Honestly I feel that's a real dangerous precedent to follow in a fighting game of all things. Overwatch stems from a similar problem in that you have people not a fan of how characters who have low difficulty can easily change the course of matches wholesale moreso than the high difficulty characters but atleast that can be excused usually due to the kits and it being a FPS.

In terms of a fighting game, trying to force characters who are low effort to not have any real decent reward seems like a completely batshit idea that would only further make people leave the game.
Shoto Characters in SF is renowned for the fact that for the most part, they are low risk until you get to know them but still have pretty decent to good gains depending on the patches and otherwise with only a few shotos being more difficult due to various things added to their kits after that(Akuma, Evil Ryu, Oni).
This also happened in SC in which Ivy has gotten easier and easier to play throughout the series(atleast to Ivy pros) to the point most of her difficulty is just not there anymore(someone will correct me on this if I'm wrong but I heard that alot from SC fans).

You shouldn't be trying to punish characters who are low risk because it's virtually something Itagaki would do(remember that people lambasted Itagaki saying that Wrestlers shouldn't beat Ninjas? You are basically saying something similar).

I agree with all this, difficulty of a character shouldn't really determine how effective they are in gameplay since even harder characters can be bad at high level if their move kits are not suited for the game at a higher level. Plus higher level characters tend to not be used often at all since in virtually all games(Tekken is an example of higher execution characters generally being used the most since the mishimas basically have the general tier lists on lock and are considered the best in the game), characters who are the easiest to use(Lili, Seung Mina, Sophitia, Kasumi, Pyrrha, etc.) are generally used the most regardless of how effective or good they are, like Lili is considered one of the worst in tekken but she has a huge following since her design and ease of use draw people in as well as her popularity. Then you have Phase 4 who's also pretty popular and "difficult" to use but she was considered to be one of the worst characters in the game since she lacks mix ups and safety

I think in general it's a somewhat stupid idea to add more difficult characters that hardly anyone will use versus a character who's simple enough to draw in more players since difficulty doesn't necessarily determine how effective they'll be in the long run, it's all about their move set and how they are used as well as their design which also can help draw in a following for that character. There isn't really a need for a "debate" since DOA up to now has a decent amount of low, medium, and high execution characters to use who all have their own gimmicks and such to make them either more or less effective than their counterparts.

 

[Onryoki]

Honestly I feel that's a real dangerous precedent to follow in a fighting game of all things. Overwatch stems from a similar problem in that you have people not a fan of how characters who have low difficulty can easily change the course of matches wholesale moreso than the high difficulty characters but atleast that can be excused usually due to the kits and it being a FPS.

In terms of a fighting game, trying to force characters who are low effort to not have any real decent reward seems like a completely batshit idea that would only further make people leave the game.
Shoto Characters in SF is renowned for the fact that for the most part, they are low risk until you get to know them but still have pretty decent to good gains depending on the patches and otherwise with only a few shotos being more difficult due to various things added to their kits after that(Akuma, Evil Ryu, Oni).
This also happened in SC in which Ivy has gotten easier and easier to play throughout the series(atleast to Ivy pros) to the point most of her difficulty is just not there anymore(someone will correct me on this if I'm wrong but I heard that alot from SC fans).

You shouldn't be trying to punish characters who are low risk because it's virtually something Itagaki would do(remember that people lambasted Itagaki saying that Wrestlers shouldn't beat Ninjas? You are basically saying something similar).

I never said they shouldn’t get any reward, I just think characters that are harder as in gameplay/execution should be more rewarding because they’re already harder to use. NiCO is top tier while she’s low effort and really easy to use. I think characters that are really easy and high tier should have some difficulty.

 

[Yurlungur]

The top tiers are actually able to easily abuse the system mechanics, making them harder won't change anything.

 

[Brute]

Difficult mechanical input/executions should be something present for players who like it, but it shouldn't be forced onto every character in the roster.

Difficult gameplans are a different matter.

From a purely conceptual standpoint, you shouldn't punish characters for being braindead. You just shouldn't have braindead characters.

 

[Kuga]

If TN will change directional inputs required for moves etc to be precise then sudenly almost every character in this game will become difficult to use.

 

[RayBellion]

I personally think we should het higher execution characters because low effort high reward is just incredibly stupid.

You serious? I am struggling already to play decently with my main! There are many more characters I'd like to play in the game than my main, but already I do not have enough spare time to learn those. Since I notice a significant drop in the quality of my play each time I pick a different character, I know it is not a problem of the character chosen, but a problem of me not investing enough time into knowing their specialities. IMHO for the average guy the difficulty is pretty high.

By raising the bars to master a character you would inadvertently prohibit their usage for people like me that have a full-time job (somehow the money for all the expensive DLC has to come in) or do not have the precision and reflexes of 13-year-olds anymore. Reducing the choice (and number) of characters one can pick will reduce the game's value of money for many potential customers. This will lead to less sales, less players etc. "There can only be one" is a great motto for a Highlander, but not as a target for the number of players in the community...

 

[Einzelkind]

Personally, DOA is one of my favorite fighting games franchises exactly because it always put an emphasis on things other than frame-perfect execution. Of course there's a sense of gratification after mastering difficult inputs and I agree that pressing p with one character should not give the same reward as pressing 623p with another, but there's a fine line between making a move or a combo hard to execute because it has a huge reward and giving moves difficult inputs for the sake of it (Hayate's throw for example is not even worth the effort). I think Soul Calibur's way of doing it with the just frame versions of some moves is the best option.

I feel like, over the years, DOA also added some characters that are or changed some characters in a way that made them more execution heavy. Mostly Eliot and Phase-4, I'd say. They don't have anything crazy like Akira's knee, but they definitely have more strict inputs than the rest of the cast if you're going for max damage.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

I never said they shouldn’t get any reward, I just think characters that are harder as in gameplay/execution should be more rewarding because they’re already harder to use. NiCO is top tier while she’s low effort and really easy to use. I think characters that are really easy and high tier should have some difficulty.

And I still feel like that makes no sense and ultimately sets a real bad precedent to try and force artificial difficulty on easy to use characters just to make them harder because... that's the point.
Nyotengu and Bankotsubo(atleast to my knowledge) doesn't have the hardest difficulties to use either due to their buttons, but due to how their playstyle works. Should they be changed because once they put their hands on you, they can do massive damage(Same with Tina and Bass)? On the flipside, should the high tier difficulty characters should have even more ridiculous tools that allow for easier victories because they are harder to use?

I understand what you are trying to say, maybe NiCO can gain some more difficult tools to use for how easy she comes off as... but how are you going to do that? NiCO is meant to be easy to use, do you mean to make most of her toolset "worthless" to make her other moves better in certain situations? Give her some random hard technique that becomes the pinnacle of her moveset? Give her a few expert holds she must rely on and call it a day?

This is what I mean when it comes off to the fact that you really have to question how she would be made more difficult and on top of that, to punish those that want to play a simple fighter like her to begin with?

 

[Brute]

NiCO is meant to be easy to use, do you mean to make most of her toolset "worthless" to make her other moves better in certain situations? Give her some random hard technique that becomes the pinnacle of her moveset? Give her a few expert holds she must rely on and call it a day?

Removing her from the game would sufficiently clear up those issues.

Spoiler

 

[Zeo]

We have high execution characters. Like Raidou for example. A lot of his potent tools have nonsensical inputs, but there's no real reward to being able to do them because he's simply not that great of a character. @DestructionBomb Can do some nasty things with him, but it a real fight against a high level opponent, even he would likely switch to another character in a serious fight.

My point being, execution doesn't really make the character. Even if we had characters like that with higher reward. Why use them when you can just pick NiCO and get a similar result for much less effort?

 

[KwonJigglypuff]

All of Raidou's cool moves are really hard to use in a serious match. The easy ones to pull are just boring copied animations with no substance. That's why I don't like using him. Thanks Vahallah the rapist's dead.

Eliot's whole combo challenge is based on his 3P, like TN tried to create an artificial gimmick which actually overshadows his new bear stance and his previous moves which were actually interestingly designed enough.

Phase 4, on the opposite, is a cool alternative to Kasumi and... she actually feels very intuitive. Sure she lacks personality and a different hairstyle, but some people (maybe me too) could prefer her to the original red-head.

I don't want to frustratingly struggle while using a character or have a character rely too much on a stupid special move. I want my roster to mix easy-to-pick characters and other with a harder learning curve.

PS: I know Hayate's raijin throw is supposed to be iconic and all, but either simplify it or make it rewarding. Because it has lost his legacy the way it is.

 

[DestructionBomb]

I think the problem is that in current timeline of fighting games, fighting game developers barely follow the old basis where if a character is high execution, he/she should have a strong reward system for it while difficult to begin and making the move kit look impactful or drawing eyes to people (which originally was how it should be - AKA Akira from VF). DOA definitely fits the boat where you do have characters who are similar strong without any sorts of difficulty. You also have characters such as Lee Chaolan in Tekken where he's extremely high execution but for minimal rewards, which is the opposite of the original concept (looks cool and flashwork but yet the work for damage is not great so I can't blame anyone for asking what's the point which I'd feel the same way).

In my opinion, execution don't mean anything if the reward behind it means jack squat. I don't think it's a good idea to convert current characters with enhancing move difficulty when their current movekit does simple general damage, it might be better to just add/make a character to fit that forte while actually taking the original concept. The problem with Raidou is more of a universal system situation where other characters are faster than him and he does not provide strong neutral checks for him to start a proper offense, so his high execution / high reward does not initiate as one makes it out to be. His Underworld Hell drop only does a few measly points less damage than Ryu Hayabusa's Izuna Drop while Ryu Hayabusa's version on top is actually pretty damn easy due to how lenient DOA with commands, so moments like that makes you want to play Hayabusa over Raidou, Zeo was correct that I'd switch Raidou in a flash if I played against a competent speed character. Then there's also utility difficulty such as Brad Wong where it's different from execution, but rather having a huge list of a movekit and knowing when to use them. Since the movekit is so big, you are more often trying to remember the moves than actually trying to do them, so you could add that as a sort of difficulty barrier. Even glass cannon characters where they are super weak in one department but super strong in another area. Basically there are multiple types of difficulty which makes it unique somewhat, but really depends on their output and performance.

Execution these days sadly seem to be more of a dick measuring contest than having the actual meaning to why it was high execution in the first place due to how FG companies make characters now I guess so eh, can vary. On topic, I don't agree with making current characters more difficult due to how strong they are with their movekit with minimal efforts, but rather normalize the movekit comparable to other characters in terms of output (unless they took the route for high execution - high reward which should be an entirely different character rather than converting current ones).

 

[Onryoki]

I never looked at it that way, I’m glad I made this thread so I can see other people’s perspective on this. In general it just irks me that Raidou is one of the harder characters in the game, with terrible speed, block breaks that don’t leave him + (with the exception of 2 very slow moves) and crazy inputs that are near useless in a high level match. You have to work very hard for a win with harder characters like him, and then you have this blue haired loli that’s fast and is + on almost, if not all of her block breaks.

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

Dont fighting games(in general) already suffer from being more skill based than other games even with "easy" characters? i dont see how adding more difficult characters would help at all... it's already not even needed to begin with imo...

 

[RayBellion]

Maybe it's an odd analogy, but let me compare this to a racing game with different cars. Each car handles differently, some are more easy for beginners, others require a more delicate handling. As a player I expect the game to allow me to win whichever car I pick. If I knew there is a car with complicated handling, but which will win every race if handled correctly, I might lose interest in the race when I know I can't win anymore against such cars (which could be too complicated for me to "learn" them).

I think it is part of the fun to have winning chances, no matter what fighter one chose. There are easier and harder characters. This is part of the challenge. If you're just here for the win and not the fun? Pick Nico and go bragging. If you do not have much free time? Pick any cheapo character to enjoy the party, why not? If you have fun with Brad or Raidou and like the learning challenge, that's great. One way or another, at the end of the day, everyone should have at least decent winning chances because of his understanding of the game and not only because he picked a a more difficult to master character than his opponent.

 

[DestructionBomb]

not only because he picked a a more difficult to master character than his opponent.

This is why characters such as Akira (VF) are the perfect example of achieving extraordinary rewards for having that difficulty to begin with while being extremely versatile and viable for all play. Changing that goes against what the character was originally built for since he actually made sense. Now changing the regular characters who are simple for general light damage and making them difficult however would be pointless as it'll push people away from playing those characters (which is not good for anyone at all) on top of the cost reward being less for playing them.

In short, there is no reason to making the already simple characters difficult except for measuring pipe with one another (which is also pointless). How I see it? you want difficult characters with actual rewards that make sense? add/make the character. If not, then adding pointless execution for minimum reward on the current cast that should be easy to begin with shouldn't be a thing.

Till this day, I still laugh at the Raijin input from Hayate where it's mostly being used as style points seeing as the damage is pointless for a character that is hardly difficult at all. The throw itself is currently what it means for bragging rights than the meaning of execution and the reward out of it.

 

[Hold_Junkie93]

I think they need to get rid of the input delay on PS4 before we think about execution heavy characters