Shimbori explains why they changed break blows on Marie, Honoka and NiCO

[Tyaren]

And everytime I read these characters they are "18" something dies inside me because is like that people never looked to real women like:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1098223410646257670

And she's 19.

Can we seriously stop this shit already? Can.. can this shit just die? Do I have to start giving you PORN ACTRESSES that look as young as Marie and NiCO so this can just die off a goddamned cliff? Or the plenty of cosplayers who look almost perfectly like Marie and NiCO and they are clearly above 18? Or you actually venturing outside of your goddamned house and comfort spot?

You two do realize that Marie Rose and co. are not real women who coincidently happen to look and act really young, but that they are fictional characters that were deliberatly designed to look and act really young? It was a character designer's intent to create Marie Rose to be that way.
Why was she intended to be that way? Let's drop the pretence and be real here: To scratch the itch of many Japanese fans (and many others around the world) of the sexualization and objectification of young girls. Lolicon is widespread in Japan, widely tolerated, and part of their culture for a long time.
Yes, the internet makes it very easy to experience foreign culture, to consume their content, to get accustomed to different norms and to get somewhat desensitized. But please don't act surprised, even annoyed, when people around you in the West, where the sexualization and objectification of young girls/boys is seen as very problematic, to say the least, voice their differing opinion on the matter.
As much as you find 18 in quotes annoying to read, many find the often repeated argument: "But there are many real woman who look very young!", or that Marie Rose looking and acting very young is undeliberate and entirely innocent, just as annoying. That sort of argumentation is either very naive or very disingenuous.

Everytime I read a insinuation like that I can't help myself and I just find traits of misogyny.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

You two do realize that Marie Rose and co. are not real women who coincidently happen to look and act really young, but that they are fictional characters that were deliberatly designed to look and act really young? It was a character designer's intent to create Marie Rose to be that way.
Why was she intended to be that way? Let's drop the pretence and be real here: To scratch the itch of many Japanese fans (and many others around the world) of the sexualization and objectification of young girls. Lolicon is widespread in Japan, widely tolerated, and part of their culture for a long time.
Yes, the internet makes it very easy to experience foreign culture, to consume their content, to get accustomed to different norms and to get somewhat desensitized. But please don't act surprised, even annoyed, when people around you in the West, where the sexualization and objectification of young girls/boys is seen as very problematic, to say the least, voice their differing opinion on the matter.

Actually it isn't. That's one of the biggest lies around Japanese culture I have seen being perpetuated by those that never really bothered to take a look. In truth Japan hates Pedophiles as much as Westerners do, what Japan VALUES is completely different than that but can be MISTAKEN to being seen as something similar.

Japan values YOUTH in their beauty standards, that's why you rarely see any protagonists above the age of 25 and above and why in most cases, they even call 30 year olds like they are 60-70 year olds. Now you may be seeing youth as in "Oh you must mean 5-10 year olds" when that's not it at all. Yes, you do see shows like that in Japan... but you also see similar stuff in American T.V.(how many times have you seen adults portray teenagers on T.V. and it being meant to be serious? How many times have you seen American Media sexualize teenagers as long as they LOOK old enough?) so that alone shouldn't be used for what Japanese Beauty entails.

So you can infact say one thing and say that they PURPOSEFULLY made Marie, Honoka and NiCO specifically to cater to the Lolicon/Pedophile market but at the same time, can you specifically PROVE it? Because I can prove American Media sexualizes teenagers that look old enough more times than I can count but there's equally too much that I can say that while they was made to market for Japanese Beauty Standards and Japanese Idol lovers, you cannot prove that they was made for pedophiles(especially since Pedophiles are NOT attracted to women who look like kids, they are attracted TO kids).

As much as you find 18 in quotes annoying to read, many find the often repeated argument: "But there are many real woman who look very young!", or that Marie Rose looking and acting very young is undeliberate and entirely innocent, just as annoying. That sort of argumentation is either very naive or very disingenuous.

Sigh Marie Rose acts young because she knows that she looks young and uses it to her advantage, I have heard stories of girls and women doing that exact same thing to screw around on purpose. That can even be seen in her profile and how she acts from DOA5 to DOAX3 to DOA6. So Marie should act OLDER to counteract the claims like NiCO does? But that doesn't work either because you did the same thing with her and so do others.
You can't have your cake and eat it too dude. If you have a problem with the bodytype, that's one thing but if you are 100% going to ignore how the character acts because "she looks and "acts" the part", then you are missing the point(she even fake CRIES when she loses in DOA5 and has a knowing smirk, she is legit acting).

 

[Macca Beam]

they didn't claim these characters weren't deliberately designed to target specific demographics; they were saying "real women who happen to look and act really young" exist, therefore the 18 in quotes statement is completely meaningless.

that argument is not naive or disingenuous; it's from people who have spent time with and observed myriads of real humans instead of ogling virtual people. naive is eating so much shitty formulaic fiction that you think appearance is tied to age.

the west, where the sexualization and objectification of young girls/boys is seen as very problematic? HBO used to air a disney movie where little kids played strip poker and the loser subsequently had to hop into a lake naked. "the west" can step the fuck off that moral pretense highground because there isn't any for them. at least the culture they like to criticize only concerns themselves with 2d drawings.

 

[Jyu_Viole_Grace]

You two do realize that Marie Rose and co. are not real women who coincidently happen to look and act really young, but that they are fictional characters that were deliberatly designed to look and act really young? It was a character designer's intent to create Marie Rose to be that way.
Why was she intended to be that way? Let's drop the pretence and be real here: To scratch the itch of many Japanese fans (and many others around the world) of the sexualization and objectification of young girls. Lolicon is widespread in Japan, widely tolerated, and part of their culture for a long time.
Yes, the internet makes it very easy to experience foreign culture, to consume their content, to get accustomed to different norms and to get somewhat desensitized. But please don't act surprised, even annoyed, when people around you in the West, where the sexualization and objectification of young girls/boys is seen as very problematic, to say the least, voice their differing opinion on the matter.
As much as you find 18 in quotes annoying to read, many find the often repeated argument: "But there are many real woman who look very young!", or that Marie Rose looking and acting very young is undeliberate and entirely innocent, just as annoying. That sort of argumentation is either very naive or very disingenuous.

What I realize is how popular conspiracy theories are.

Objectification of young girls? excuse me?, she is objectively 18, "young girls" can look older than her or are you trying to tell me that all young girls look alike? or maybe you can only imagine certain "young girls", the "true ones"?


This is just based on how western people think female characters should be and if these characters don't fall under the progressive western gaze then people let their mind go wild with the most prejudiced theories they can think.

 

[Yurlungur]

Omg who cares she's a fucking shit character and now this is the third game she's in, get over it. We're literally rehashing an argument that's been around her inception.

If i can get a close up and view every other character get wacked in the face really hard, why can't i see her get wacked in the face really hard? What makes her so fucking special she gets to break that rule. Jfc.

 

[Macca Beam]

Omg who cares

always the famous quote from man who proceeds to have a volcanic eruption

get over it

i, too, wish for a world where people aren't persistently, autistically up in arms about some video game character.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

Omg who cares she's a fucking shit character and now this is the third game she's in, get over it. We're literally rehashing an argument that's been around her inception.

If i can get a close up and view every other character get wacked in the face really hard, why can't i see her get wacked in the face really hard? What makes her so fucking special she gets to break that rule. Jfc.

Nice contradiction there because as you say you don't care, you apparently care enough to be angry AND call her a shit character.
I say you care alot.

 

[Jackie Chan Fan]

I'm think the real issue is the special treatment the 3 "young girls" get and it doesn't make sense.

 

[deathofaninja]

The zoom out is stupid. It doesn't change the facts that they get punched in the face though and it's a form of censorship. Boo-fucking-who it's a fighting game and if you don't like it go be a pussy and climb rocks in DOAX3.

 

[Macca Beam]

"special treatment" was applied across the entire female cast. there was a thread here with the details. you'd have gradually reduced blood, facial distortion to pulling the camera away. whereas someone like janny lee would spit out all the tomato sauce he ate last night when you love tap him.

the real issue here is why is this an issue? why is an experimental feature that has never been in a doa game before and is 100% getting axed by the next game an issue? why do those people who asked for it to go away need a similarly childish counterforce? if i wasn't already playing this series and saw from behind the display pane that its denizens' latest circus act is fighting over what pixels should and shouldn't get hit in some shitty gratuitous animation while a million other features in the game are falling the fuck apart i'd back the hell off to a better game. just embarrassing. trust me, the pervert bikini fappers of the fgc don't need another name attached to them, so don't work so hard for it. some of you are seriously trying to one-up the most obsessed otaku in terms of letting anime characters influence your mental state so be careful about that too.

 

[Yurlungur]

Nice contradiction there because as you say you don't care, you apparently care enough to be angry AND call her a shit character.
I say you care alot.

I care more about the fact that it's been fully six years(she came out in 2013) and it's the same fucking argument and the same people posting the exact same stuff from six years ago about the character with practically the exact same arguments. We've seen in at her inception/we've seen it during DOAX3 and now again.

But hey, out of that whole statement take apart the term shit character while you're still going on about a circular argument that still for whatever fucking reason needs to be entertained about "marie and her sexualization".

But, you guys have fun continuing on about this. Can't wait to see this exact same topic constantly brought up again during DOAX4 AND DOA7 which 85% will probably have the exact same responses as well.

 

[Macca Beam]

you're aware it wasn't him who brought the topic up but some spergs who couldn't let it go, right?

the same topic will be brought up again so long as there are still people who let this fictional character live R E N T F R E E in their heads. and since the internet is ultimately not their personal echo chamber, if they continue to be a clown where they can be read and replied to, there will be all sorts of passerbys stopping to drop comments on them.

however, the blame is not on the latter group. they didn't start it.

still waiting for you to put this "omg who cares" thing into practice, by the way. that's a lot of acid from someone who allegedly doesn't care.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

"special treatment" was applied across the entire female cast. there was a thread here with the details. you'd have gradually reduced blood, facial distortion to pulling the camera away. whereas someone like janny lee would spit out all the tomato sauce he ate last night when you love tap him.

the real issue here is why is this an issue? why is an experimental feature that has never been in a doa game before and is 100% getting axed by the next game an issue? why do those people who asked for it to go away need a similarly childish counterforce? if i wasn't already playing this series and saw from behind the display pane that its denizens' latest circus act is fighting over what pixels should and shouldn't get hit in some shitty gratuitous animation while a million other features in the game are falling the fuck apart i'd back the hell off to a better game. just embarrassing. trust me, the pervert bikini fappers of the fgc don't need another name attached to them, so don't work so hard for it. some of you are seriously trying to one-up the most obsessed otaku in terms of letting anime characters influence your mental state so be careful about that too.

Yeah, you aren't wrong on that since I even remembered from this side people was complaining about not feeling right that any of this "gratuitous violence" was even in DOA. So it's definitely a combo of special treatment for all of the ladies even before it came to the latter 3.

I care more about the fact that it's been fully six years(she came out in 2013) and it's the same fucking argument and the same people posting the exact same stuff from six years ago about the character with practically the exact same arguments. We've seen in at her inception/we've seen it during DOAX3 and now again.

But hey, out of that whole statement take apart the term shit character while you're still going on about a circular argument that still for whatever fucking reason needs to be entertained about "marie and her sexualization".

But, you guys have fun continuing on about this. Can't wait to see this exact same topic constantly brought up again during DOAX4 AND DOA7 which 85% will probably have the exact same responses as well.

Dude, I don't really care about this at all and I said my piece on this overall. The only reason I even talk about it is when others can't let it go and keep bringing it up over and over and over again.
There's only so much misinformation that can happen before I start to correct it but no, I'm nowhere near as invested as you are.

 

[Jackie Chan Fan]

Indeed, there is "special treatment" to the female cast. Those three characters just have more. Special++ haha

 

[werewolfgold]

Team Ninja already copped to intentionally making the characters in question look very young in interviews. They even said that they wanted to make NiCO look younger and cuter than Marie. So everyone can take that for what they will. If they didn't have the hard rule all-but-forced upon them of 18 being the youngest they can go, I doubt they would all be 18.

Why? Because for one, it becomes comical that all these characters introduced one after the other just happen to be same age (not to mention Nyotengu being 1018). If it was any other age being repeated, it'd be just as goofy. Two, because the gimmick of "older than you think" becomes stupid if you just keep replicating it over and over again (unless it's a bunch of vampires).

It's not like we can't point to the thousands of sexy high schoolers (as in personal tastes aside, characters created to be lusted after) that Japanese anime and video games have thrown at the wall. Hell, Yoko from Gurren Lagann was 14. FOURTEEN. at the start of the series. And if we go next door to Soulcalibur, Talim and Amy Sorel exist, soon to be clad in Ivy's dominatrix attire, I'm sure. The part of Japanese culture that bred this moe-moe-kawaii archetype had and has no problem with sexy characters being under 18. To the point where 18+ is a rarity even.

That anime culture has hardly been required to use that older-than-you-think trope (outside of stupid 3000 lolis or something) to justify it. And given that, it's almost besides the point that real-life adult people that look young exist. I doubt that TN was trying to think that deeply. They just created what they wanted and slapped the obligatory "18" on it after the fact. Obviously, we don't know everything behind the scenes. But, does it seem like TN is trying super hard to buck design trends and break ground otherwise? I'd say no.

Anyway, I don't think the break blow close up is that bad. It only lasts for a second, and it does make the fights seem more intense. That and the cuts and bruises make it seem like the characters are really in danger. And insofar as TN wants Marie, Honoka, and NiCO to actually be 18, then they have to treat them as such. Which would be exactly like they treat Ayane and Eliot, whom testers didn't have a problem with getting punched in the face for...some reason...

HBO used to air a disney movie where little kids played strip poker and the loser subsequently had to hop into a lake naked.

Dafuq? Disney movie? Was it like from the 70s or 80s? People got away with all sorts of weird shit in movies back in the day.

 

[Macca Beam]

looks like it was around 2000. there's also that state pageant meme going on (right now?) that i didn't look much into. beware the (not even drawn) skeletons in your own closet lads

and yes i talked about this before. 18 keeps popping up because they need to pick something as small as possible without inciting another sweden incident (until they created marie rose to give them a real middle finger, of course). that and you don't try to appeal to them with a number between 18 and 1000. i'm 100% confident this is how it worked behind the scenes and also explains why the main characters mysteriously caught up to leifang over night. it's not a requirement by one of japan's subcultures, but part of their effort to appease outside groups.

hell no they aren't trying to buck design trends or break ground (though i know better than to expect that from dead or alive). within the series, though, i must admit something that isn't a new head screwed onto kasumi/ayane's body is quite the unicorn. when you have new people say the only characters they can tell apart are ayane, marie and uh uh lisa, there's a problem.

now it's just the other way around, new bodies on the same head, kasumi 7 and misaki 2 actually taking up roster slots, even sold as premium, and raking in their own cosmetic money.

also it's THE vampires where the gimmick is at its worst because it's guaranteed they will have a stupid age on the label

P.S. oh and on break blows, the only time i personally felt "fighting intensity" in it was when both fighters are in view (and the minimization option isn't the same because they put a flash of light on top of it for some reason). in all honesty doa5 executed it more tastefully with the elaborate and varied motions and the camera ultimately showing the winning side coming out on top, instead of the other way around that ends up enabling all sorts of strange fetish shit. bryan's win pose isn't awkward, but the other variation is.

 

[RayBellion]

DOA's prime feature has always been the ecchi style, same as Mortal Kombat takes pride in all its blood and gore display. IMHO with DOA6 TN has taken a step further towards explicitly showing brutality. By expanding on a "new" terrain instead of ecchi, insecurities and questions are to be expected. I can imagine a similar discussion if MK would expand on breast physics. If you leave your home turf, trouble is near...

For me, the "in-game" age of a video game character was never of importance (the character is just a graphical creation, isn't it?). I like the look of DOA's fighters, from Marie to Gen Fu. I confess: I very much prefer watching boob wobbling than chests ripped open to tear hearts out. That's why I choose DOA over MK and why I personally don't like the new close up feature, but its existence doesn't bother me greatly, too. DOA has great game mechanics, but honestly? I would not play the game if the graphics were shitty. After realising this it became clear to me that DOA appeals to me only because of the marriage between great game mechanics AND gorgeous character depictions. That all female (and male!) characters are stereotypes and that not all stereotypes are equally welcomed by everyone is quite natural.

So I understand that graphical changes can lead to discussions. But as long as DOA remains true to its style and doesn't stray off course too far, I don't care about the nuances like who gets a close up and who doesn't.

 

[Jyu_Viole_Grace]

Team Ninja already copped to intentionally making the characters in question look very young in interviews. They even said that they wanted to make NiCO look younger and cuter than Marie. So everyone can take that for what they will. If they didn't have the hard rule all-but-forced upon them of 18 being the youngest they can go, I doubt they would all be 18.

Why? Because for one, it becomes comical that all these characters introduced one after the other just happen to be same age (not to mention Nyotengu being 1018). If it was any other age being repeated, it'd be just as goofy. Two, because the gimmick of "older than you think" becomes stupid if you just keep replicating it over and over again (unless it's a bunch of vampires).

It's not like we can't point to the thousands of sexy high schoolers (as in personal tastes aside, characters created to be lusted after) that Japanese anime and video games have thrown at the wall. Hell, Yoko from Gurren Lagann was 14. FOURTEEN. at the start of the series. And if we go next door to Soulcalibur, Talim and Amy Sorel exist, soon to be clad in Ivy's dominatrix attire, I'm sure. The part of Japanese culture that bred this moe-moe-kawaii archetype had and has no problem with sexy characters being under 18. To the point where 18+ is a rarity even.

That anime culture has hardly been required to use that older-than-you-think trope (outside of stupid 3000 lolis or something) to justify it. And given that, it's almost besides the point that real-life adult people that look young exist. I doubt that TN was trying to think that deeply. They just created what they wanted and slapped the obligatory "18" on it after the fact. Obviously, we don't know everything behind the scenes. But, does it seem like TN is trying super hard to buck design trends and break ground otherwise? I'd say no.

Anyway, I don't think the break blow close up is that bad. It only lasts for a second, and it does make the fights seem more intense. That and the cuts and bruises make it seem like the characters are really in danger. And insofar as TN wants Marie, Honoka, and NiCO to actually be 18, then they have to treat them as such. Which would be exactly like they treat Ayane and Eliot, whom testers didn't have a problem with getting punched in the face for...some reason...


Dafuq? Disney movie? Was it like from the 70s or 80s? People got away with all sorts of weird shit in movies back in the day.

You can take it as they secretly want to deliver dark desires to their fans or you can take it as it's a way to slap in the face to people that want to get offended by fictional characters age. After all it's not the first time they take adventage of controversy.

The secret behind Marie Rose is really easy to understand, she was different in a series where all female characters were always the living image of perfect bodies. Taking adventage of her appearance to make fun of you and even openly insulting other characters was something new in a franchise where even Christie looks polite in comparison with her.

Her being even more popular than they expected (because they recognized it) is a reason to keep developing more characters like her. But this is just a logical consequence of marketing.

If we want we can push the same logic after other characters, like for example, the true motives behind Lisa being black. Isn't her just a response to people liking dark skin? or maybe this is not something that the progressive west gaze want to bring to the table? or maybe they just wanted to design her like that, just like Zack.

 

[Macca Beam]

this is a point i've complained about time and time again. it looks like they came up with something to fill the gaping rift between the more on-the-nose brand of tough talk of ayane, christie and to some extent bass and leon, and the hordes of nice, honest, determined, sometimes apologetic guys and gals that's the rest. "I fight!" no shit, with the way you've been waving that I'M A FIGHTER banner around, i'm sure everybody could already tell what it is that you do. there's at least 15 of you in every game.

but they didn't fully commit to the idea. half of the time you have things like the taunts, the fake lose and 4P+K・4, the other half of the time you have another flower that does random "cute" things just like h*tomi. making it a servant character was also a very odd move as servants are obedient, loyal and meek (i'll at least give credit to the "are you serious?" gaze when hayate was allowed through the door, but i slept through the rest).

 

[werewolfgold]

looks like it was around 2000. there's also that state pageant meme going on (right now?) that i didn't look much into. beware the (not even drawn) skeletons in your own closet lads

I have no idea what you're referring to, but I'm not about to google it to try to find out. lol

I confess: I very much prefer watching boob wobbling than chests ripped open to tear hearts out. That's why I choose DOA over MK and why I personally don't like the new close up feature, but its existence doesn't bother me greatly, too.

Can we not act like getting punched in the face is in the same vein as getting your heart ripped out? That's not even a slippery slope, really. However, DOA's brother Ninja Gaiden is just sitting over there in the wings waiting. I wouldn't call it new terrain.

Spoiler: THERE WILL BE BLOOD.

Also, MK is no stranger to "the jiggle". Though they've calmed down for this gen, MK: Deadly Alliance was like the predecessor to OMG mode almost. lol

You can take it as they secretly want to deliver dark desires to their fans or you can take it as it's a way to slap in the face to people that want to get offended by fictional characters age. After all it's not the first time they take adventage of controversy.

The secret behind Marie Rose is really easy to understand, she was different in a series where all female characters were always the living image of perfect bodies. Taking adventage of her appearance to make fun of you and even openly insulting other characters was something new in a franchise where even Christie looks polite in comparison with her.

Her being even more popular than they expected (because they recognized it) is a reason to keep developing more characters like her. But this is just a logical consequence of marketing.

If we want we can push the same logic after other characters, like for example, the true motives behind Lisa being black. Isn't her just a response to people liking dark skin? or maybe this is not something that the progressive west gaze want to bring to the table? or maybe they just wanted to design her like that, just like Zack.

I have...we'll say not a whole lot of beef with Marie Rose by herself. She was something different compared to what we'd gotten in the past and her being Swedish and "18" can easily just be a joking jab at what happened with DOA Dimensions in Sweden. But, they missed a big opportunity to use her appearance in the narrative, and play up the fact that she uses her childish appearance and antics to disarm people. As of now, she's just a really childish looking and acting 18-year-old. If you play it straight like that, of course people are going to have doubts.

And then without any hint of irony, just keep introducing "young" characters like her, all 18 and all played straight like it's not an outlier, makes it just awkward. Marie by herself doesn't raise as much of a red flag as the combination of her, Honoka, and NiCO.

Your bringing up Lisa in this context is...suspect. Kind of on a visceral level. What are you doing? lol