A few things to respond to here.
On throw breaks, I should have reiterated the methodology mentioned in the other thread I linked to. Some of the comments seem to be based on lack of information or understanding of how they work in other games, particularly VF, which is the most relevant as its the system that works best with the DOA system.
First of all lets dispense with the notion that its a hard thing for Team Ninja to make more animations, or that it wouldn't be desirable. Animations make the game look and feel good to play, and provide clear visual information for what worked, what didn't, and how.
Throw breaks would be directional and based on the same logic as other choices in the system.
In short - if you buffer a throw escape in the same direction as the throw, you get an escape. The exception would only be if you're getting punished for attempting a Hold, locking out an escape.
This introduces a mindset of "my opponent wants to do a forward throw, I'll prevent that". Then the throwing player needs to think "he knows I want to throw forward. I'll throw backward".
It's simple, it's elegant, and it provides a powerful added layer of depth which the game can benefit from in neutral play. Strong neutral requires this kind of access to defensive choices including when thrown.
To refresh from the thread
explaining it
- Once more with feeling - as above, it's time for some "brave" big boy fighting game mechanics. This would be relatively simple to implement. And here's how you to it while protecting the Triangle system:
- If a Throw is attempted with a command ending in Forward+Throw (6T), then the Escape should be 6T.
- If you Throw an opponent who is in performing or recovering from a Hold, it should still be unbreakable as part of the triangle system of Throws punishing Holds
- You would be able to buffer the Throw Escape. For example, as you finish a string, hold 6+T and keep it held - a 6T throw punish would be escaped when attempted. The buffer should also be possible to initiate while simply holding the block button (Press H and hold, then press P and hold. Throw escape is buffered while held)
- This adds to the directional mindgame and forces attackers to adapt to using a variety of throws.
- Throw escapes are hype and won't affect low level play
- It's incredibly in theme for DOA as you're constantly "training" your opponent to make choices and exploiting their habits.
Now, to some of the objections
Absolutely agree 100%.
I don't think the Offensive Holds or Throws should be touched at this point. I've played a lot of SCVI since it came out and I gotta say, seeing throws break constantly is an annoying site to behold even though it's a completely different game. They put an emphasis on it this time around and it breaks the flow of combat to the point where it's not fun to me.
It's mistaken to look at SCVI as a comparison for a DOA throw break system. It's too dissimilar to the proposed system. SCVI throws are all catch throws and reactable. You tap either of the attack buttons to get out. This would be a
directional throw break system, so the choice of which throw to negate creates an interesting set of choices in the defensive game.
Virtua Fighter demonstrates this flow beautifully.
- Once you're able to break certain throws, you get to weaken the dominance of tick throw situations which favour strikers. Grappler players WANT throw breaks in the game as Grapplers have a better variety of throws. It's better to have the ability to escape certain obvious throw choices from strikers (such as launch throws or running throws) while having a variety of your own choices.
- Note that if a throw is escaped the Throwing player should be at least neutral or slight advantage, so you don't get "punished" for attempting to throw
- This system may then open up and benefit from implementing a few moves which punish unsafe attacks with specific strikes, like an elbow or jab move, so people have a throw punishment alternative. I think this is not a huge issue in the DOA system - even if a throw is broken you can initiate your next setup, however it would be a good addition. See how this works in Virtua Fighter here
- This is really not so hard to balance because of the universal access each character has to throws and escapes. It is already a directional throw system with escapes at neutral, so let the gameplay build to the next logical step.
I would argue being able to break 6T as well as just T but not every throw in the game (6Ts and Ts are probably the most commonly used throws across all characters). If I go for a 12+ frame throw in a game where strikes are averaging at -8 on block I want to be rewarded for my efforts or at a big + advantage. I took a big risk in an extremely offensive game and want to be rewarded for said risk, not at neutral, slightly plus, or minus because someone decided that they would break the throw.
Also, how would Offensive Holds be treated? As they currently are or would they get the Throw treatment?
Implementing a system where you can break some throws and not others would be a mistake. It's illogical and doesn't make sense to the player learning as it's arbitrary. Why can I break 6T and not 4T?
And choosing what to throw based on frame speed of the throw? Even harder to perceive and less logical.
It makes much more sense for people to just learn "oh that was a back throw, I'll escape back next time." Universal system, means players learn it and apply it logically to any situation, and its about understanding the movelists and paying attention to the direction the throw sent them in. DOA already follows this logic in the way its throws work.
As for throws at disadvantage being guaranteed, nope, just go with the guaranteed Hold punishment and the system will be easier to understand and just as robust.
Offensive Holds would stay the same. They're already vulnerable to throws, so someone inputting a throw break would get a throw against them.
