Improving the Neutral: Shimbori Talks System Changes

26175.jpg

Tokyo Game Show 2018 (TGS) took place between the dates of September 20th to September 23rd in the Chiba prefecture outside Tokyo, Japan. It was my first time attending the event, and I had the fortune to visit it during the press-exclusive days of the 20th and 21st in addition to the public days that followed. I came to the event with one goal: To play as much Dead or Alive 6 that I could at the Koei-Tecmo booth. I had previously had the chance to try an earlier demo during the Evolution 2018 (Evo) championships event this past summer, and was looking forward to seeing what had been updated.

I focused primarily on the new character to the series, Diego, at the Evo event since my preferred character (Bass) was not available. I had heard murmurs from the other players that they found Diego to be too strong in such an early build, and wanted to see how he might have been changed. While it's too early to say whether a character is over or under powered, I would have to say that Diego isn't an over-powered character. Based on my experiences with the character at both events, and granted some "character bias" may be in effect here, I would say the character certainly has good throw damage, a good 1PP, and a nice 1K poke. However, he doesn't have much of a good critical game. That is to say, outside of a good Fatal Rush string, he doesn't have any real way to guarantee launchers or extend critical.

Evo was a more hectic and fast-paced event due to the demonstration booths being set up in a way to promote playing the demo with another player. Players would be escorted to stations in a two-man group. This is in contrast to the experience I had at TGS where people were being escorted on a single player basis. A lot of that design is most likely due to a combination of the atmosphere and the culture surrounding the event, especially on the Press-exclusive days. What this meant for me as a fan of the series since I first played Dead or Alive++ was that I would spend most of my time alone with the build. Trust me when I say trying to manage two controllers or arcade sticks to test frame specific timings is a difficult task. Furthermore, the TGS build did not offer an option to see Move Details, even though the option had been announced in the months prior to the event. This limited what I was able to figure out about the build.

Image: /images/news/8060/26171.jpg

Public days at TGS were packed with a line exceeding an hour wait.


The public days didn't fare much better, as the language barrier made it difficult to express desire to test or show things of the system. I had to also keep reminding myself that this was the first time 99.9% of those in attendance were even getting a chance to experience Dead or Alive 6 in any form. The players weren't afforded the opportunities I was by having not only the three days at Evo to get a baseline feel, but the two additional Press days I had with the TGS build. That being said, I was able to get a few matches in with other players like Miyabin and Demekun (Links are to recorded match videos), and it was certainly nice to experience playing Dead or Alive 6 with my preferred controller style of an arcade stick.

The first thing I wanted to test out was the idea of free cancelling the Break Blow cinematic. This was actually a feature from all the way back in the E3 announcement, but it was never announced or shown off properly. I didn't get any time to practice this feature during Evo because I did not find out about it until the stations had already closed. The Break Blow Cancel is done by pressing the Hold button during a small window after the Break Blow lands but before the cinematic kicks off. This effectively uses your full gauge to reset the Critical system and leave the opponent in a Fatal Stun, instead of using it for one hard knock back hit. This also means that since you can juggle an opponent with a Fatal Rush that automatically blends into a Break Blow should you have 100% Break Gauge, you can do a short juggle and re-stand your opponent to launch them again provided your opponent does not Break Hold with 50% of their gauge. Interestingly, if you mash on the Hold button while either in start up of the Break Blow or after the hit has landed, the game seems to ignore the cancel. So the cancel is something that has to be timed specifically with care.

Image: /images/news/8060/26173.jpgNow, testing out the Break Blow Cancel I had many ideas and strategies come to my mind on possibilities of combo extensions, utilizing danger zones, and taking further advantage on an opponent who either had no meter to Break Hold or wasted it by whiffing one. However, while there certainly are long guaranteed combos that are possible, I began to notice that damage revision picks up rather fast once you have launched the opponent. Since Move Details were not available, it's quite difficult to guess at the percentage of revision. I was verified later by Team NINJA community manager Emmanuel "Master" Rodriguez that there is some heavy revision after a few juggle hits have occurred. Additionally, knocking an opponent into a danger zone, while giving them a possible opportunity to hold in some danger zones, doesn't appear to fully reset the Critical system as some combos in the initial Critical state wouldn't appear to work in these "reset" situations as it only allowed fewer hits. Eventually, I began to find combos where doing the Break Blow Cancel, extending the Critical stuns, and relaunching into a Danger Zone seemed to provide more damage than had I not cancelled to begin with. However, that is at the risk of an opponent holding out of the stuns should they gain meter and want to use them.

Additionally, the Critical state itself seemed to have been lessened. Overall, I got a feeling that while stuns were longer due to the removal of Stagger Escape and of long Fatal Stuns, the game seemed to have more focus on the Neutral game. That is, similar to Dead or Alive 2 and Dead or Alive 3, the first hit is the most important. Couple all that with the removal of the Critical Threshold Launch system introduced in Dead or Alive 4 where the closer to full Critical meant a higher launch, and the game feels like a return to the Stun-Launch system of old. This means that you are no longer required to play the Critical game. Your launch height is the same regardless of whether the opponent was early or late in the Critical Threshold system. The lack of Stagger Escape then also makes a lot of critical stuns be "Must Hold" situations.

On top of that, I was able to verify that the Critical System's Damage limits also have had a reduction. By testing with Hayabusa's jab (it's always been 10 damage in every Dead or Alive game) I was able to verify that Dead or Alive 6, at least at the time of the TGS build, has a smaller Critical System. It still plays off the core change introduced in Dead or Alive 4 where the attack putting the opponent into Critical won't count towards the damage threshold. Specifically, I was able to verify that the new damage limits are at 25/30/35 for normal, counter, and hi-counter blow. This is different from Dead or Alive 5 where the limits were 28/35/42. This further leads to the idea that Dead or Alive 6 appears to be having a more focused effort to strengthen the neutral meta-game and lower the amount of time during a match that the game is spent playing the Critical meta-game.

Another area I tested out was the side step system. It practically was unchanged from the Evo demo where the neutral side step felt exactly the same as Dead or Alive 5 and the side step attack felt extremely evasive. However, one instance while playing a pro player in the game stands out to me. I was demonstrating a lot of the system changes to the player, and during our casual matches I was abusing his very linear Hitomi with the side step attack. He exclaimed in shock, "I feel like I have to be careful with how and when I attack!". Instantly, we both felt that strengthening of the neutral game the system now has. To actually have the experience where the game wasn't all about the Critical system was very relieving for me as a player. I had other areas of the game I could focus my strategies on. I'm unsure if I can completely put into words my feelings at that moment, but I just remember me growing a smile.

I like that the Fatal Rush is a high attack, this makes high and low holding stronger, which in turn makes mid-hitting launchers more powerful. Keep in mind that launchers are scarier now as you don't have to play that stun game to get a good launch. While low holding might seem more powerful than a high hold, it's good to keep in mind that a launching attack will launch an opponent higher if they are in crouch state or holding low when hit. One good hit and you can find yourself on the receiving end of a danger zone, especially if your stage positioning and character match-up knowledge is poor. I feel that having the Fatal Rush as a high helps the balance of the attacks, the critical meta, and the game - at least in my view.

That being said, from my experiences at both Evo and TGS, I can say you can still play the game similarly to the style of Dead or Alive 5. It's just that the style may not be the optimal style to play this game, though it currently is the most popular due to players having seven years to practice the Dead or Alive 5 style. Of course, players haven't been given a lot of time with the game due to limited demos and the game is still changing as development continues. It excites me to think of what could be discovered once the game releases in February.

Image: /images/news/8060/26174.jpg

Yohei Shimbori provided me an interview shortly after the event stream was turned off for the day.



On September 22nd, shortly after the event stream was turned off, I was able to get some time to talk to Dead or Alive 6 Producer and Director Yohei Shimbori. The interview was being done through a bilingual interpreter, and in doing so it is possible some of the wording may have been altered from Shimbori's original intent.

Matt Ponton (MP): The players have noticed that there is no Stagger Escape in Dead or Alive 6's demos. What was the thought process that went along with that decision, and why was it removed from the game after being in the system since Dead or Alive 2?

Image: /images/news/8060/26158.jpgYohei Shimbori (YS): So we started to remove the Stagger Escape mechanic because we didn’t want people to struggle with it; we don't want that to be an artificial skill barrier in order to become good at the game. Players aware of Stagger Escape were able to really speed up recovery and generally did so to the fastest degree, but for people who are new to the game the inclusion of Stagger Escape is hardly noticeable. So we really wanted to make the entry point a lot easier for newer players to the game by making fast recovery the default. So that's one of the reasons why we decided to remove it.

MP: With that in consideration, are you also keeping other areas of the system in mind in regards to balance, such as the Free Step Dash Cancel bug?

YS: The Free Step Dash Cancel bug is something we're looking to fix if it hasn't already been done. Were you able to perform it in this Tokyo Game Show demo?

Master: I have not been able to reproduce the Free Step Dash Cancel bug in the Dead or Alive 6 demo.

YS: So, that's something a small portion of the audience would like something like that, but really for the larger audience we definitely don't want that to be in the game. At one point we did consider incorporating that into the system, but then we thought that it would make it even harder for newer players to enter the game and so we decided against it.

MP: In my own tests on this demo I wasn't able to reproduce it as well. I wanted to make sure that the lack of Stagger Escape wouldn't be abusable with such a bug in the existing Critical System changes. In those tests I also noticed that the critical threshold has been shortened from 28/35/42 to 25/30/35 for normal/counter/hi-counter blow critical stun. It seems that there is less time in critical stun throughout the total time of the round itself. What led your team to decide to lower the amount of time spent in Critical state?

YS: Similar to the previous answer, we wanted to make something for every player. It's something that for people really good at the game they can more easily recover from that, but it's a lot harder for people who are newer. So we've adjusted that as well to make it easier for various types of players. We think it adds an additional layer to the strategy that's involved into the game. You know, it's not just simply about mind games that you're trying to fool the other player, but you really have to think and analyze things through. So this makes it even better for the more expert players.

MP: What led to the decision to remove the Critical Level Launch system that was featured in Dead or Alive 4 and Dead or Alive 5, where a higher Critical Level would reward a higher launch? Is this in relation to the theme of making it easier for new players and decreasing the amount of time a match is spent in Critical State?

YS: That's right. It is the result of decreasing the time spent in reading the critical game and emphasizing the neutral game.

MP: There's a lot of fans out there of Dead or Alive 4 and Dead or Alive 5's ground game. So what changes can they look forward to seeing in Dead or Alive 6 to help them keep pressure and perform setups against players laying on the ground?

YS: So in terms of the ground game, this is something that requires a lot of precise adjustments. You know, one wrong move can really upset the entire system. So it is something that we are still balancing at this point. It's not completely about force teching, and so we want to make sure that there are options for players who want to decide to take it on or want to try and counter it. Also, we are giving people the option of whether they want to get up on their own when they are knocked down. The significance of this may depend on the skill level of the player. But, let’s see how this evolves as we are still adjusting and balancing this feature.

Image: /images/news/8060/26164.jpg

"We are looking to provide the game equally across all platforms. So we're not just focusing on Steam, but we are concentrating on all platforms being equal."


MP: Speaking of giving players an option to decide, Dead or Alive is the only major 3D Fighting game currently without a universal throw break system. Are there any plans in the future of adding more throws that are breakable on reaction?

YS: A universal throw break system is something that always comes up each time we make a new Dead or Alive game. Dead or Alive is really known for the triangle system, and that's something that we really value for this series. So if immediately you could just always do throw breaks we don't think it will make it a well-balanced game. So having all characters and all moves being able to do that is not something we are planning on incorporating. But one thing we are kind of looking at from a technical level is having around a five frame window for the throw break, and so the speed at which you break the throw will alter the advantage and disadvantage of the throw break. We think if we implement too much of it then it would really change that balance of what Dead or Alive is.

Image: /images/news/8060/26170.jpgMP: So the throw system is something that's still being worked on like the ground game?

YS: Yes, very much so. We're still working on many parts of the system as we come closer to Dead or Alive 6's release.

MP: Dead or Alive 6 appears to be using Steam as its lead platform. Since Dead or Alive 5 Last Round was the series' first foray into the personal computer world, is there anything that Steam users can look forward to specifically with Dead or Alive 6?

YS: We are looking to provide the game equally across all platforms. So we're not just focusing on Steam, but we are concentrating on all platforms being equal. We are aiming for them to be all equal, so the fact that there's a lobby feature is something that we would implement in all versions. That is something we are aiming for right now. Obviously, we are still in the middle of development so we can't exactly say what is going to be in the final product. Our plan is to aim to make the game equal across all platforms. So no matter which platform you own, we hope players should expect the same thing. Specifically for PC or Steam, everyone has different specs for their computers. So in terms of people who have high system specs, we are making it so that the graphics are the highest quality possible. For people who have lower system specs, something we are looking into now is how far we can support the lower end PCs and so that's something that's still under review.

MP: So Phase 4 and Nyotengu are two characters who are going to be early DLC characters. Fans of those two characters were a little upset that those two characters weren't added to the Dead or Alive 5 story upon their release. How will these two characters participate in the Dead or Alive 6 story?

YS: It depends on the character. We did just mention on the Tokyo Game Show stage that Nyotengu is getting a bit of a story for herself, but in terms of Phase 4 we don't really know at this point. It's a secret.

MP: So the story hasn't been finalized yet?

YS: We do have the story, but we just don't have the visuals to go with it yet.

MP: I unfortunately am being told I'm almost out of time here so I have one more hopefully quick question for you: Is Lisa dead?

YS: Lisa is alive. Actually, In Dead or Alive 5 when the M.I.S.T. laboratory exploded, she... Oops I cannot say any more.

That concluded my time with Yohei Shimbori and my experience at Tokyo Game Show. Dead or Alive 6 will be releasing on February 15, 2019 for PlayStation 4, Xbox One, and Steam. The next playable demo for Dead or Alive 6 will be at the Dead or Alive Festival 2018 event at the Ochanomizu Sola City Conference Center in Tokyo, Japan on November 18.
 
Last edited:
PC version of DOA5 I believe has 1 frame delay? I could be wrong, @WAZAAAAA would know for sure.
:eek: is that eve possible ? It certainly didn't feel like one frame... that being said I never once questioned anything in that game that has happened to me... when I get caught be something it always felt like it was my reaction that was too slow and not the game just taking its sweet time.

PS4 version has about 7 frames more than whatever the PC version has due to the system's inherent delay.

Thats... Alot... especially for a system that more likely to be hooked into a TV rather than a responsive monitor.

SFV had about 8 frames of delay on PC, and I think they just announced they are able to shave off 2 more frames with an upcoming update to Unreal? Oh, and SFV's frame delay was variable, even offline. You could be playing at any moment and it changes the input delay by 2 or 3 frames, on the consoles as well.

It was 8 Frames at launch and they managed to get it down to 6-7 Frames by season 2... I don't know if this was part of the Unreal Engine update or if it was specific to SFV... after all Tekken didn't get its input delay reduced around the same time SFV did.

theres alot of Speculation about what the input lag reduction might do for SFV... some people expect their results are going to out right improve...

I personally just want to be able to block EX Sonic Booms that I know are coming. I sincerely doubt even something significant like a 2 Frame Reduction is going to make Whiff Punishing easier or Counter Poking Ken, Laura, Ibuki and Karin's Dash cancels... especially Ibuki's... that one specifically was designed not to be reactable... that's why they gave her an After Image... to trick your brain into thinking there's still Hope... lol.

In VF? Hell yes, but their stuns are similar yet completely different to how stuns work in DoA.

All of this is kind of a moot point though. I don't like SE, you don't like SE, its gone in DoA6, hurrah! lol

True... Thats the big picture... I'l drink to that !!! :p
 
SE wasn't really an advanced skill. All you literally did was mash the dpad and "tada" you just halved the frame recover. Wow, such skill while having a negative impact on the system.

And yet again you still failed to realize how useful it was within DOA5. Getting hit by non-guaranteed launchers for huge amounts of damage with minimum effort is below the IQ compared to wiggling out the stun. The -results- is "advanced", not how you do it.

It was mentioned that the stuns are reduced to compensate for the lack of SE. Good, if that's the legitimate case then there is no reason to even have SE (don't give a damn what happens to SE) and bringing back the good ol stun launch which is good because of the amount of guesswork you had to do in DOA that does more harm than good, but I also find it extremely hilarious that the very small minority considered it a negative impact when it helped players avoid situations that are "not" guaranteed on moments that "shouldn't" be guaranteed. The game is already easy enough, newcomers can become great players if they sat down and played. People should stop playing on those pads and go on stick or fight pad if SE is making their tiny thumbs red. If I caught someone staggering out (almost everyone I play SEs), always went for fast launchers and deep stuns such as a crumple or feint because people kept using that thing as a crutch. It's punishment and conditioning them to hold more often.

-----------------------------------------------

On topic, as much as I love a throw break system, it still seems as if TN still doesn't want to cave into it. I'm not sure if Shimbori got the wrong idea about throw breaks as a whole, but the outcome was explained that throws shouldn't be breakable from someone holding, or from an unsafe situation during block / whiff moved on recovery / landing throws on a BT opponent. On everything else such as neutral situations from defending / tick throw situations, throws should be breakable here. (Even useful during reset situations). Even then, it sounds like it's more on the lines of expenses from what I hear so it's unfortunate.
 
Last edited:
Damn.... So I've been playing a lot of DOA5 recently, and....

It's going to be very very weird capping the habit of trying to SE every stun. I do that shit CONSTANTLY by muscle memory.
 
Damn.... So I've been playing a lot of DOA5 recently, and....

It's going to be very very weird capping the habit of trying to SE every stun. I do that shit CONSTANTLY by muscle memory.

If the stuns are truly reduced then you don't need SE which to me that is great. If that's the case then get rid of SE, it's why I was neutral on the situation because that way people don't have to worry so much on when to stagger out or to wiggle that thing. The issue is how deep the stun is for very light attacks that allows you to connect to the slower deadlier attacks or slow launchers that lead to huge amounts of damage with minimum effort because you held wrong (or even correctly if they land it after your hold is no longer active). SE helped to reduced that outcome where you "don't" have to guess from a high risk situation due to advantage in play from the opponent and trying to play it safe.

You have to condition the player who uses it as a crutch for everything to start holding more often and that is a big weakness to SE back in DOA5. People have died because they kept staggering out as a tool, refusing to hold the fast launchers or getting hit with deep stuns to where SE can't compensate for it. That's on them and they deserved it. You can get slapped for holding so much and you can get slapped for staggering out so much for -not- holding. Sometimes you have to make the hold, otherwise the player going for the fast situations will obtain damage and be on the lead. It's on them.
 
Last edited:
If the stuns are truly reduced then you don't need SE which to me that is great, it's why I was neutral on the situation because that way people don't have to worry so much on when to stagger out or to wiggle that thing. The issue is how deep the stun is for very light attacks that allows you to connect to the slower deadlier attacks or launchers that lead to huge amounts of damage with minimum effort because you held wrong (or even correctly if they land it after your hold is no longer active). SE helped to reduced that outcome where you "don't" have to guess from a high risk situation due to advantage in play from the opponent and trying to play it safe.

You have to condition the player who uses it as a crutch for everything to start holding more often and that is a big weakness to SE back in DOA5. People have died because they kept staggering out as a tool, refusing to hold the fast launchers or getting hit with deep stuns to where SE can't compensate for it. That's on them and they deserved it. You can get slapped for holding so much and you can get slapped for staggering out so much for -not- holding. Sometimes you have to make the hold, otherwise the player going for the fast situations will obtain damage and be on the lead.

Yeah it's refreshing to hear that even with the removal of SE the stuns are reduced. One thing I'd kind of like to see is that lighter attacks in deep stun don't have as much as an impact as they did/currently do in the game. For example, it would be lit to see if the "only" way to carry on the threshold is to use moves that have stunning on normal and counter hit properties. Like in DOA2 for example. Jann Lee's 8P in stun wouldn't give enough advantage for him to hit any follow up attacks. Hayabusa's 4P6P didn't put the enemy in deep stun on CH like it did in 5. It just pushed the enemy back a bit and Ryu got a bit of advantage. I think Ein's 66P had a similar effect. Zack's 7P has this effect in DOA5, but only at the end of the threshold. I'd lowkey like to see the strength of jabs in stun to be changed to do something similar to this, as we no longer need stun fillers for DOA6. Maybe jabbing stunned foes could end that combo or something. Something similar to when you hit a 2P on a stunned enemy. Stuns imo should only be deeper on HiC and on the slower, more stronger hitting attacks. It would also be good to take away counter hit properties when you catch someone backdashing. This shouldn't be the case anymore since we tryna beef up neutral and lessen the stun fest type gameplay that DOA4 and 5 kept on.

But yeah man like you said, in DOA5 you could get bopped for trying to do both defensive options, you just gotta make sure you're doing each one at the "right" times. Like shallow stuns it was kinda better to try and SE, but for things like SDS and deeper stuns you gotta wiggle that bitch lmao.

EDIT:
Unsure if this is an unpopular opinion but I feel like DOA6's gameplay could be utter greatness if it took aspects from:
DOA2's stun speeds and overall on hit/counter hit advantages
DOA3's stun game (Which it kind of has already)
DOA4's ground game (2 hits for FTs only, but we can see that TN is working on an entirely new ground game.)
 
Last edited:
And yet again you still failed to realize how useful it was within DOA5. Getting hit by non-guaranteed launchers for huge amounts of damage with minimum effort is below the IQ compared to wiggling out the stun. The -results- is "advanced", not how you do it.

I have never once said SE is not useful. Of course its a useful mechanic, but just because its useful doesn't mean its a positive mechanic for the overall system and health of the game. Take your snide attacks elsewhere.
 
  • Like
Reactions: YEH
I have never once said SE is not useful. Of course its a useful mechanic, but just because its useful doesn't mean its a positive mechanic for the overall system and health of the game. Take your snide attacks elsewhere.

It's not a negative impact if it's useful to both players for positive outcomes.

Then take that sad excuse of a logic elsewhere.

Yeah it's refreshing to hear that even with the removal of SE the stuns are reduced. One thing I'd kind of like to see is that lighter attacks in deep stun don't have as much as an impact as they did/currently do in the game. For example, it would be lit to see if the "only" way to carry on the threshold is to use moves that have stunning on normal and counter hit properties. Like in DOA2 for example. Jann Lee's 8P in stun wouldn't give enough advantage for him to hit any follow up attacks. Hayabusa's 4P6P didn't put the enemy in deep stun on CH like it did in 5. It just pushed the enemy back a bit and Ryu got a bit of advantage. I think Ein's 66P had a similar effect. Zack's 7P has this effect in DOA5, but only at the end of the threshold. I'd lowkey like to see the strength of jabs in stun to be changed to do something similar to this, as we no longer need stun fillers for DOA6. Maybe jabbing stunned foes could end that combo or something. Something similar to when you hit a 2P on a stunned enemy. Stuns imo should only be deeper on HiC and on the slower, more stronger hitting attacks.

Stun launch game is back so that's pretty good.

Like shallow stuns it was kinda better to try and SE, but for things like SDS and deeper stuns you gotta wiggle that bitch lmao.

Sometimes trying to stagger out certain situations can be a pain (really depends on the type of stun), mostly tied to sitdown stuns and lift stuns. If you play on the net, you are in constant delay of trying to stagger out a certain situation that shouldn't land but lands anyway because the bufferings came in later rather than sooner. It's moments like that where people would feel SE to be pointless (If they play on the net all the time then yeah, I can kinda see why). Makes you not want to use SE at all so I perfectly understand that feeling. Was only putting the points that it did help players rather than having it as a negative impact which is pretty absurd to say it was a negative.
 
Sometimes trying to stagger out certain situations can be a pain (really depends on the type of stun), mostly tied to sitdown stuns and lift stuns. If you play on the net, you are in constant delay of trying to stagger out a certain situation that shouldn't land but lands anyway because the bufferings came in later rather than sooner. It's moments like that where people would feel SE to be pointless (If they play on the net all the time then yeah, I can kinda see why). Makes you not want to use SE at all so I perfectly understand that feeling. Was only putting the points that it did help players rather than having it as a negative impact which is pretty absurd to say it was a negative.
Yeah, trying to SE online (especially when you tryna play DOA coast-to-coast or cross-regional) was the worst experience. In those situations it was lowkey better to just panic hold instead of trying to SE. However offline we -know- that it was beneficial when done right, and it did help when in dire straits. I dunno how having SE in the game was seen as a negative to some, when it made sense for it to be in previous DOAs because of how long the old stuns were. In DOA6 it makes sense to not have it when it was explained for shorter stuns. It's calm out here bruh.

What some of us are not about to do is disregard the old relevancy of stagger escapes though. Y'all -know- it was a decent tool.
 
PC version of DOA5 I believe has 1 frame delay? I could be wrong, @WAZAAAAA would know for sure. PS4 version has about 7 frames more than whatever the PC version has due to the system's inherent delay. SFV had about 8 frames of delay on PC, and I think they just announced they are able to shave off 2 more frames with an upcoming update to Unreal? Oh, and SFV's frame delay was variable, even offline. You could be playing at any moment and it changes the input delay by 2 or 3 frames, on the consoles as well.
It might be sone kind of difference of recognition? When I play PC version DOA5,I usually need some time to adapt the input feeling,such as lee's PPP6P, I always wrongly input as PP6P,but the fun part is,in screen info,it shows PPP6P
 
It's not a negative impact if it's useful to both players for positive outcomes.

Then take that sad excuse of a logic elsewhere.

Again with the snide personal attacks.

Its a negative impact because of how it functions. It can turn some moves with + frames on hit into negative frames and it allows players to escape deep stuns and negate what could be a good CB setup into straight up blocking it. In Hitomi's case a site down stun for her you can stagger out of every follow up into a block except for 6p and 6k. That's not a good system. You lost the neutral game, you lost the rps game in stun and rightfully put into a no hold situation, in what world is it ok to get a third chance to get out of a deep stun and be able to block/hold? That is a negative impact, that is unhealthy for a game that is already super random. SE is literally one of the worst offenders of attributing to this games randomness and lack of risk/reward.

Ah whatever, I'm done with this thread and I'm putting you on ignore.
 
It can turn some moves with + frames on hit into negative frames and it allows players to escape deep stuns In Hitomi's case a site down stun for her you can stagger out of every follow up into a block except for 6p and 6k. That's not a good system.

There hasn't been a single move in that game that leaves you at disadvantage for an opponent SEing if a stun triggers, if it gets blocked then of course it's disadvantage now, but that's because the startup from the following attack you commenced was too slow for compensation for landing when it got blocked in the first place, that's a player problem. The only time moves become disadvantage is if the recovery is so huge that -immediately holding right after- makes them negative (Raidou, Brad Wong, Leon etc.). Immediate holding that eliminates your stun recovery is what kills your advantage offset. To me, it looks like you are just absolutely making stuff up. The opponent can SE and yet you are -still- plus despite having lower advantage now. It only becomes disadvantage if they blocked the follow up. You are not losing whatsoever here. You are only losing if you went for the slower option. So go for the fast option next time? don't have a fast option for the mid? then reset the situation for when someone staggers. How exactly is this hard.

If you can only land 6P and 6K then that's *good*, why? because you are ----still----- plus when those two attacks lands. The opponent is still losing.

That is a negative impact, that is unhealthy for a game that is already super random.

The game was already random the moment you are placed in a stun. Reducing that stun to reduce that random is a benefit, not a negative impact.

Ah whatever, I'm done with this thread and I'm putting you on ignore.

Oh uh cool, I already won this anyway so yeah whatever.
 
There hasn't been a single move in that game that leaves you at disadvantage for an opponent SEing if a stun triggers, if it gets blocked then of course it's disadvantage now, but that's because the startup from the following attack you commenced was too slow for compensation for landing when it got blocked in the first place, that's a player problem. The only time moves become disadvantage is if the recovery is so huge that -immediately holding right after- makes them negative (Raidou, Brad Wong, Leon etc.). Immediate holding that eliminates your stun recovery is what kills your advantage offset. To me, it looks like you are just absolutely making stuff up. The opponent can SE and yet you are -still- plus despite having lower advantage now. It only becomes disadvantage if they blocked the follow up. You are not losing whatsoever here. You are only losing if you went for the slower option. So go for the fast option next time? don't have a fast option for the mid? then reset the situation for when someone staggers. How exactly is this hard.

If you can only land 6P and 6K then that's *good*, why? because you are ----still----- plus when those two attacks lands. The opponent is still losing.



The game was already random the moment you are placed in a stun. Reducing that stun to reduce that random is a benefit, not a negative impact.



Oh uh cool, I already won this anyway so yeah whatever.
well I think he's complaining about his character hitomi,her 2HK low sweep in normal hit,if opponent fastest SE,she will get a slight disadvantage,-1 I challenge my memory.
But I still believe that it's fair to hitomi for 2 reasons
1,nobody can fastest SE in any random neutral game,actually in most cases,hitomi will get her advantage anyway
2,that move is a half-hit animation low sweep,everybody half-hit a low will be negative even though opponent does not SE
 
Last edited:
Oh general light stuns from the lows. I mean, it's a low. Can't expect to obtain a huge amount of advantage unless it lands on CH or on water (which is pretty fair for the most part). Sounds like a Hitomi problem I guess.
 
I hate myself for replaying to this.

DestructionBomb said:
There hasn't been a single move in that game that leaves you at disadvantage for an opponent SEing if a stun triggers,

I never said stun, I said on hit.


DestructionBomb said:
If you can only land 6P and 6K then that's *good*, why? because you are ----still----- plus when those two attacks lands. The opponent is still losing.

I beat you in the neutral, I beat you in the stun game. Why would I go for a deep sit down stun if my only options is 6p which knocks you down and 6k which lifts in the air for a pitiful damage juggle or even risk going for 9k or CB because they may or may not be SEing? I'm literally better off risking more of the stun game or going for a standard launcher. The risk for going for a slow mid kick sit down stun is totally pointless thanks to SE. There is nothing "good" about that.

DestructionBomb said:
The game was already random the moment you are placed in a stun. Reducing that stun to reduce that random is a benefit, not a negative impact.

Reducing that stun adds more randomness because now you have to deal with SE and possibly being thrown back into a neutral fight. Its bad enough you can hold in stun, SE removing situations that would normally be unholdable just adds more to the randomness. Defender should have less options in stun, not more. Once you're in stun that should be it. Its already bad enough the stun game is too long and you have the option to hold out of stuns. Don't need another element giving the defender a back door to negate his mistakes in neutral and their failure to hold the deep stun setup.

Either way, thankfully the stun system is going to be more like DoA2 and 3 and SE is completely gone. Only nonsense to deal with in stun is holds, and with SE gone, stuns that would normally be unholdable should now actually be unholdable.

DestructionBomb said:
Oh uh cool, I already won this anyway so yeah whatever.

The only thing you won is being a jerk with the snide personal attacks.
 
I hate myself for replaying to this.



I never said stun, I said on hit.




I beat you in the neutral, I beat you in the stun game. Why would I go for a deep sit down stun if my only options is 6p which knocks you down and 6k which lifts in the air for a pitiful damage juggle or even risk going for 9k or CB because they may or may not be SEing? I'm literally better off risking more of the stun game or going for a standard launcher. The risk for going for a slow mid kick sit down stun is totally pointless thanks to SE. There is nothing "good" about that.



Reducing that stun adds more randomness because now you have to deal with SE and possibly being thrown back into a neutral fight. Its bad enough you can hold in stun, SE removing situations that would normally be unholdable just adds more to the randomness. Defender should have less options in stun, not more. Once you're in stun that should be it. Its already bad enough the stun game is too long and you have the option to hold out of stuns. Don't need another element giving the defender a back door to negate his mistakes in neutral and their failure to hold the deep stun setup.

Either way, thankfully the stun system is going to be more like DoA2 and 3 and SE is completely gone. Only nonsense to deal with in stun is holds, and with SE gone, stuns that would normally be unholdable should now actually be unholdable.



The only thing you won is being a jerk with the snide personal attacks.
chill dude,there are so many characters do not have a single useful sitdown stun,and many of them do NOT even have good strings like hitomi does,but still,they are good characters lol,like phase-4,alpha152,moniji,nyo tengu etc...
The point is,it is not SE's fault,I believe it's for character balance

PS:please don't argue for arguing,it's not helpful
 
I hate myself for replaying to this.



I never said stun, I said on hit.


Raansu like you kidding me right now? That move is generally a good low if it lands on CH despite being i19, gives you like what? +2/+4 especially on water and hardly anyone staggers on the very first hit, it's not the best low but I seen similar characters with similar situations. Do you know what you get for landing that move on water via CH? a free launch. It's like we are making Hitomi's 2H+K into some sort of a slow VF 2P, but their 2P downside on CH gives a massive pushback to compensate for how good which someone could backdash from it since it is +1 on NH. Aren't most moves on NH generally disadvantage on hit? only issue I see here is that Hitomi's has a light stun from the looks of it with a no so great advantage, with fastest stagger at -1 but really now, to stagger out on the first hit from that low, and being a low at that . That move is + on CH, albeit not a big one, but most hits on NH in general do not provide huge advantage even if one doesn't really stagger. If that's the case then make that move better if people truly wish it or reduce recovery.

I guess we might as well make -every- low on NH + with a short stun. I should of edited my post regarding moves on hit in general, but even then, from that? come now, it's a low.

I beat you in the neutral, I beat you in the stun game. Why would I go for a deep sit down stun if my only options is 6p which knocks you down and 6k which lifts in the air for a pitiful damage juggle or even risk going for 9k or CB because they may or may not be SEing? I'm literally better off risking more of the stun game or going for a standard launcher. The risk for going for a slow mid kick sit down stun is totally pointless thanks to SE. There is nothing "good" about that.

Your only option is 6P? what? this seems to be more of a Hitomi problem than a system problem. A jab from Hitomi in level 1 stun is like +25 or greater which is essentially a free launch from most of her moves. Once that jab lands, no amount of SE can escape from the launch. Try SE after that and no amount of rotation can save someone from it so how is this a negative impact? damage is lower, but health is 300 and you are scoring roughly 60+, especially on CH. Or maybe you are using the wrong approach? who knows, but I have seen Hitomi still mess people up from SE too much.

You go for the deep stun because the opponent went for the stagger out option, and then you launch them for it. It's like the few people are not taking advantage against someone using it as a crutch.

---------------------------------------

Raansu, we have to end this squabble since it's thread derailing. This seems to be a character problem, can't help you there since it's all based on how they do it.
 
Last edited:
PC version of DOA5 I believe has 1 frame delay? I could be wrong, @WAZAAAAA would know for sure. PS4 version has about 7 frames more than whatever the PC version has due to the system's inherent delay. SFV had about 8 frames of delay on PC, and I think they just announced they are able to shave off 2 more frames with an upcoming update to Unreal? Oh, and SFV's frame delay was variable, even offline. You could be playing at any moment and it changes the input delay by 2 or 3 frames, on the consoles as well.
SFV was reduced to 6 frames during season 1. 6 currently seems to be the standard for a number of games (KoFXIV, Injustice, MKX, etc.). But yes, variable input delay at certain points is still a problem.

yep,in DOA3 you can simply got your opponent 60% lifebar by only one single guess,and that's why DOA3 was broken ,like a tits version Divekick lol.
And this is exactly why it puts emphasis on the neutral game. Because there are heavy consequences for losing in the neutral game.

Clearly we have big divergence on how to define a good fighting game and what is a good neutral game,in recent years every single successful FTG(SFV,TK7 etc) tend to be strict in damage adjusment with an offensive-encouraging system.I believe a neutral game like Divekick is a joke,it's wrong,totally going against a serious FTG.

Funnily enough, both games you mentioned (SFV and T7) allow for some pretty big damage off a single hit. And SFV has shit neutral since the game is more about getting in close and doing pressure (which is considered separate from neutral in 2D fighting games).

More importantly, they don't give you chances to escape from the combo once you're hit.
 
Last edited:
What I got from this interview is a guy who wants to make good games. He is also someone who cares about fighting games. I like him. Reading this makes me more at ease with what they are doing. It will be about spacing and really landing an effective combo. Hold baiting will be even stronger.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: YEH
And this is exactly why it puts emphasis on the neutral game. Because there are heavy consequences for losing in the neutral game.

But there are also heavy consequences for a particular system being used as a crutch. Most people haven't provided a definite answer to what exactly on neutral they are seeking when a triangle system is in place.
 
ALL DOA6 DOA5 DOA4 DOA3 DOA2U DOAD
Top