Some gameplay issues with DOA6?

ryu_highabusa

Well-Known Member
They're using a modified Dynasty Warriors 9 engine for the game. I'm pretty sure that everything they did had to be rewritten to work on it, judging from Google Translate. The game's also 8% done, so there's plenty of time to fix the gameplay.

https://www.4gamer.net/games/422/G042216/20180615175/
Can we split this interview off into it's own thread or nah? I thought it was important enough to address two key points that most people are missing: 1) the game's only 8% and 2) the jiggle is not gone, it's just not implemented yet.

cpDvr38.png


PgtamnX.png


I've attempted a more human-friendly translation of the part discussing the jiggle because people are STILL freaking out over nothing:

"On some parts of the internet, people are claiming 'the bouncing breasts have been cut from DOA6.' Obviously, we're currently transitioning graphics engines, so it simply hasn't been implemented yet, but that doesn't mean we're taking that feature out. We're not done so I can't say for sure how it'll be at release, but since fighting game character appearances are important, I don't think it should be too over-the-top. Simply put, I feel things like women's breast-plated armor bouncing up and down looks kind of weird. So, internally we're doing things like creating flags for individual parts that should or shouldn't move."
 
Last edited:

Raansu

Well-Known Member

Argentus

Well-Known Member
It is random. In neutral you can more or less get a feel and read somewhat what your opponent is trying to do. That's not really a thing in stun when they just pop out of it with little animation to really follow since holds pop out at 0 frames.

The catch is that there's more to it than that. WHICH hold? Are you doing a strike, if so, is it a punch or kick? What height? Are baiting the hold from stun to go for a double damage grab instead?

There's a lot of options going on.

Why would I bother doing that kick if (like you could in doa4) just stagger out of it, immediately turn around and block or hold the follow up. In what world is that ok?

Because you already know they're going to block or hold what they assume will be a followup, so you are correctly reading and anticipating them, and therefore DONT do the followup, but instead perform a throw on them. Either they're free due to blocking, or taking extra damage from attempting a hold. Or you simply perform a DIFFERENT followup, like a low.

That's half the point of DOA is the mindgames like that, conditioning people to patterns then exploiting said pattern.

You made the mistake and let yourself get hit by a high kick thats unsafe on block. Why is it ok that you can recover from that mistake in the neutral game?

Because I already took a high kick to the face.

Why do you want free damage after already getting damage?

You're taking this completely out of context. People are not saying they are getting beat by random holds. The point is that random holds in stun are exactly that, random. It kills the flow in a situation that shouldn't exist to begin with.

My point was that it's not random at ALL. If you know they can hold from stun, then you can expect it, and plan accordingly. That's not random.

Random would be if they pressed a single button, and that button had a roll of the dice chance to either strike/hold/throw.



Just to be clear on your meaning here, please explicitly define what "random" means to you in the context of this discussion.

The fact that you have four options on four hit levels alone means that it's more involved than "pure RPS," let alone the numerous other considerations. I understand that what you're trying to say is that it's purely anticipation so you can't read enemy movements and the like (unlike you can in neutral), but to relegate that entire process to "pure guessing" would be to dismiss all inductive reasoning as "pure guessing," as well. And anyone with a reasonable capacity knows the difference between an active inference and a purely random guess.

This. You may not always be RIGHT, but you can still figure it out.

That's literally a long winded way of saying you're guessing

....


let's put this another way.

Back in school, with the scantron tests (or whatever they're called in other places), where you fill in a bubble for multiple choice questions.

There's 4 options, A, B, C, and D. Each technically has a chance of being "right", but the context of the questions and answers assigned to those 4 letters should make you consider things more carefully.

Did you just "guess" your way through those tests by filling in random bubbles, or did you read the situation and attempt to answer correctly to the best of your ability using all provided context and knowledge? Or would that still just be "Guessing" for you because it's not 100% guaranteed to be the right answer?


As a sub example, sometimes I legitimately would not know what to pick, having narrowed it down to say, A and C, but unsure of which. So I would leave that question alone, because, due to the nature of those tests, I knew later on there would likely be a question in the reverse, and sure enough, i'd find a question later in the test that was basically the answers to the previous questions, but Jeopardy style in the form of a new question, and then I just reverse engineered that question to plug the answer back into the previous one.

To give that context, even in a situation against someone I haven't got a "read" on yet, I'm not going to "guess", but simply eat it and get more experience fighting them so I know what to do in the same situation next time they put me in it.

It's never "Random" or "Just Guessing", unless you're just farting on the controller while blind and deaf.
I do find it funny that a lot of the people who complain about the stun system pick characters that are designed to play the stun game as frequently as possible. For some reason, I rarely hear someone say: "I hate the stun game, so I'll just use a grappler for high-risk, high-payout damage packets."

This is exactly why I usually pick power characters in fighters, in all honesty haha. Part of why I love leon, for example, I know no matter how bad the match is going, I can turn it around at the drop of a hat, so i'm not worried until the match is actually over.






But to be kinda back on topic.


Do you think they'll nerf Leon's counter hold damage? Sometimes I feel dirty basically one shotting people from half health by doing a desert falcon after baiting a hold.

Or like the general rule of "stay out of the water" when fighting Leon, because that 6T gets nasty on a baited hold over water.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Argentus said:
The catch is that there's more to it than that. WHICH hold? Are you doing a strike, if so, is it a punch or kick? What height? Are baiting the hold from stun to go for a double damage grab instead?

There's a lot of options going on.

Ya, and every options is RPS.

Argentus said:
Because I already took a high kick to the face.

Why do you want free damage after already getting damage?

You're failing to answer the question. Why should I go for the risk of that kick that is unsafe on block? Why go for that kick if the spin around stun gives me nothing? What reason would I ever risk that? Why do you want a back door to every mistake you make? If you block that kick I'm eating a throw. What do I get out of taking that risk, more guessing games? Cool. You "taking a kick to the face" is not a reward for the chip damage that kick does. Mind games are all fine and dandy, but it really feels like you just never want to own up to any mistake you make. You want a back door to everything, and that does not make a good fighting game.

The only reason I ever use that kick in 5 is because the risk is worth the BT stun that it gives me. If I didn't get that I would never go for that kick, it would be completely pointless for the same reason I never go for 8k sit down stun because I get nothing out of it. Its more rewarding to go for a raw 33p than for a sit down stun that you can stagger out of and block almost every follow up except for 6p and 6k and 6k only lifts for a juggle at max threshold, which again I'd get more damage if I went for an early low launch 33p
 
  • Like
Reactions: d3v

Argentus

Well-Known Member
You're failing to answer the question. Why should I go for the risk of that kick that is unsafe on block? Why go for that kick if the spin around stun gives me nothing? What reason would I ever risk that?
Because you already know they're going to block or hold what they assume will be a followup, so you are correctly reading and anticipating them, and therefore DONT do the followup, but instead perform a throw on them. Either they're free due to blocking, or taking extra damage from attempting a hold. Or you simply perform a DIFFERENT followup, like a low.

So how did I fail to answer the question by directly answering the question, again?

Why do you want a back door to every mistake you make?

Literally throwing that question right back at you, here, is all that's really going on with this topic.

Mind games are all fine and dandy, but it really feels like you just never want to own up to any mistake you make. You want a back door to everything, and that does not make a good fighting game.

Not to instigate or escalate here, but just pointing out that it sounds more like you're projecting there. The entire problem is it sounds like you don't want to own up to when you are unable to get a read on the opponent.

FYI everything being guaranteed doesn't make a good fighting game either.

The only reason I ever use that kick in 5 is because the risk is worth the BT stun that it gives me.

TBH I don't use hitomi so I can't comment on that SPECIFIC kick, but I use similar huge easy to react to kicks with Mila (her flying heel drop, the charged 7k, the back spin kick, etc) to great effect. The first two for punishing baited holds when I'm in mid attack, the last one to poke punish people trying to recover from being knocked down/back.

Just because it's not a guaranteed combo setup doesn't mean there's no reason to use those kinds of attacks.

One of my bnbs is....ugh hang on, trying to remember something I do by muscle memory here, that's hard, like trying to explain tying your shoes. It's like punch punch punch, charge 7k, crit burst, knee left to punch punch punch, mount when they hit the ground, or after crit burst, spin kick to launch, overhead haymaker to knock em back down, mount to knee em in the head.

Like almost none of that is technically guaranteed, it's just conditioning the opponents to react to the wrong stuff and punishing em for it. That works for me almost every single time, despite the fact they can *technically* get out of it at any time if they did the right thing.

Yes I know there's better guaranteed damage combos to do off the crit burst, but I get bored when things are that guaranteed, i get more fun out of just outplaying people instead.

That's a silly question. Bathe in it's glory!

Why did we never design a shark costume for him? When Leon's around, stay out of the water!
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
So how did I fail to answer the question by directly answering the question, again?

Because you didn't answer it. You threw in a scenario that is just more guessing. You can call it reading all you want, but its all guessing. I can bait them all I want, but if it was DoA4 and I had that kick setup and they staggered out of the BT I don't fucking know if they are going to hold, block or attack. I can try and condition them all I want, but I'm still taking a guess at what they are going to do. You know how many times I've thrown someone over and over again trying to get them to react to it so I can get them with something else and they just keep blocking anyways? You can't predict what people do. Making a read is just an educated guess of previous habits.

So again, you didn't answer my question of why would I ever bother doing such a high risk move if it gives me nothing to take advantage of? And I'm going to say again, why do you want an escape out of every situation? When does the RPS stop and the reward for taking high risks begin for you? From my perspective you just want a way out of everything, which again, is why DoA4 was a horrible game. The reason that 46k spin stun gives me something is one of the reasons why DoA5 is a superior game because options like that exist that reward something that is high risk. Setups like that heavily emphasize a stronger neutral game which in turn makes a better fighting game.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: d3v

ryu_highabusa

Well-Known Member
Me neither but it's still not common knowledge and it's kind of hidden inside this thread so I'm not sure what an ideal solution would be.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
The issue with DOA starts at the neutral game. The best iteration yet was vanilla DOA5. Characters had strong but relatively slow attacks that gave you advantage on block. Everyone was scary strong and that was a good thing. That was ultimately changed in later iterations where only a handful of those attacks remain. That inevitably means that turtling is a much better option than trying to attack. Even if you win the relatively random neutral game, you still have to contend with holds.

Not to mention the retarded disadvantage after normal hit, but I already mentioned that.
 

crapoZK

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Regarding Fatal Blows/Fatal Rush/Fatal Stun:

(Not sure if people already know but oh well)
People were wondering if the SSSS strings were still unholdable/semi-guaranteed if the enemy is already caught in critical stun. I've been digging through all the DOA6 related videos I could find, regardless of it being either scrub play or MASTER bodying fools, and I found in a video that Fatal Rushes can still be regularly held out of stun which I am super super happy about. And it also looks like literally every hit in the string is high. This is dope.

There are still issues with the fact that Break Blows at the end of raw SSSS strings are still busted as far as damage goes, so that needs to get toned down if the meter builds for literally everything you do, or make it so that you only build meter from taking damage and blocking. Break Blows are what's breaking the game at the moment for me as it literally eats everything bar lows (which most in DOA except for 2P isn't even fast enough to interrupt these moves so you may as well block them or make attempts to throw them out of the start-up, good look with that online bruh) and does like 35% raw and like 40% with wall hits.

The issue with DOA starts at the neutral game. The best iteration yet was vanilla DOA5. Characters had strong but relatively slow attacks that gave you advantage on block. Everyone was scary strong and that was a good thing. That was ultimately changed in later iterations where only a handful of those attacks remain. That inevitably means that turtling is a much better option than trying to attack. Even if you win the relatively random neutral game, you still have to contend with holds.

Not to mention the retarded disadvantage after normal hit, but I already mentioned that.
Normal hit is so useless in DOA lmaooo you could use a low poke and then get hit out of the follow-ups your character has it's too distressing xD. DOA5V neutral was dope because your pokes were viable and you could see the influence from SEGA AM2 with the balance in terms of turn taking etc. At high level it was "you poked so I can poke now", but now it's kinda like watching 2 people walk around for 10 seconds waiting for some shit to HiC hold or get a deep stun combo lmao.
 

d3v

Well-Known Member
make it so that you only build meter from taking damage and blocking.
This is literally one of the worse ways to implement meter, because it ends up rewarding losing and simply ends up as a comeback mechanic.
Break Blows are what's breaking the game at the moment for me as it literally eats everything bar lows.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with a meter powered move beating out other moves or having invulnerability.

Good meter systems should, in part, reward players for doing well (without putting someone in too much of a slippery slope). Hence, most good meter systems reward players more meter for attacking (while still giving a bit less for getting hit or defending).

At the same time, good meter systems give tools that also change matchups. Often times, it lets a player negate their opponents tools by the presence of meter alone. Meter then becomes a way for good players to make their opponents play a certain way, instead of just becoming a glorified combo ender.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
This is literally one of the worse ways to implement meter, because it ends up rewarding losing and simply ends up as a comeback mechanic.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with a meter powered move beating out other moves or having invulnerability.

Good meter systems should, in part, reward players for doing well (without putting someone in too much of a slippery slope). Hence, most good meter systems reward players more meter for attacking (while still giving a bit less for getting hit or defending).

At the same time, good meter systems give tools that also change matchups. Often times, it lets a player negate their opponents tools by the presence of meter alone. Meter then becomes a way for good players to make their opponents play a certain way, instead of just becoming a glorified combo ender.

There is, however, an EXTREME problem with it when there is no way to safely bait out the threat or avoid it. We have no good sidestep system right now, nor throw breaks and some characters move like bricks. You're going to be encouraged to hit buttons to survive, like you've always been, but this time there is a button that eats all buttons. Not good, it does not lead to any kind of coherent mindgame format. This is a 12 frame move with no cinematic startup, so unless we're talking about going the FR route you can't use meter to keep it in check either. The tools do not exist to make this mechanic manageable right now.

So either the games base mechanics need to change, or the BB mechanic itself does. Right now it is an incompatible addition.
 

d3v

Well-Known Member
There is, however, an EXTREME problem with it when there is no way to safely bait out the threat or avoid it. We have no good sidestep system right now, nor throw breaks and some characters move like bricks. You're going to be encouraged to hit buttons to survive, like you've always been, but this time there is a button that eats all buttons. Not good, it does not lead to any kind of coherent mindgame format. This is a 12 frame move with no cinematic startup, so unless we're talking about going the FR route you can't use meter to keep it in check either. The tools do not exist to make this mechanic manageable right now.

So either the games base mechanics need to change, or the BB mechanic itself does. Right now it is an incompatible addition.
I'm sure a compromise can be made that doesn't just turn BBs into a tacked on combo ender, which is something that does happen in a bad meter system. Maybe add a cinematic startup or increase the startup from 12 frames so people can react to raw BB (unless they've already pressed a button). Maybe fix the sidesteps and give us actual decent sidesteps with a measure of invul that can avoid these.

There has to be a way to address issues outside of "neuter meter".
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Cr!msonWarrior said:
Regarding Fatal Blows/Fatal Rush/Fatal Stun:

(Not sure if people already know but oh well)
People were wondering if the SSSS strings were still unholdable/semi-guaranteed if the enemy is already caught in critical stun. I've been digging through all the DOA6 related videos I could find, regardless of it being either scrub play or MASTER bodying fools, and I found in a video that Fatal Rushes can still be regularly held out of stun which I am super super happy about. And it also looks like literally every hit in the string is high. This is dope.

I mention it in this thread http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/doa6-was-playable-at-e3.7078/#post-371002

The FR stun still seems to be unholdable, but Jann Lee and Helena seem to do critical hit moves after the first FR stun which is what gives the window to hold. Kasumi however did not have this and every hit on her combo was a FR stun.

Cr!msonWarrior said:
There are still issues with the fact that Break Blows at the end of raw SSSS strings are still busted as far as damage goes

Fatal Rush combo doesn't seem to do a lot of damage. Its the tacked on break blow that you can combo into at the end of the string that does the obscene damage.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
I'm sure a compromise can be made that doesn't just turn BBs into a tacked on combo ender, which is something that does happen in a bad meter system. Maybe add a cinematic startup or increase the startup from 12 frames so people can react to raw BB (unless they've already pressed a button). Maybe fix the sidesteps and give us actual decent sidesteps with a measure of invul that can avoid these.

There has to be a way to address issues outside of "neuter meter".

Universal throw break mechanics and proper movement. That's the only way because it allows you to weather the storm instead of being forced into hitting buttons to survive as is presently the case. It wouldn't matter if they slowed down BB because it still counters attacks, and you'll be hitting buttons to avoid getting plucked by unreactable throws. It's like being asked to punch a moving fan to stop it from hitting your face. Who the hell wants to do that?

And currently, it's a big ask. Far more big than just removing BB, as they have been opposed to throw breaks and free movement for more than a decade.
 

Fantailler

Well-Known Member
Universal throw break mechanics and proper movement. That's the only way because it allows you to weather the storm instead of being forced into hitting buttons to survive as is presently the case.

That's pretty much what i'm asking for DOA 6.

Add more push Block and clean the frame data for guaranteed punish/throw punish and crouch dash fuzzy guard/evade.Everything is unsafe in DOA that's crazy...

More defensive tools in neutral. It becomes harder to hit an experienced player, but when it does(usually from a mistake) the player who screwed up deserves to be be punished accordingly to the risk his opponent took.
 
ALL DOA6 DOA5 DOA4 DOA3 DOA2U DOAD
Top