This game was a real treasure.

True


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Force_of_Nature

Well-Known Member
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Wholesale changes for the better, but wholesale changes nonetheless.

1) Dead or Alive 4 had little to no strikes - let alone guard breaks - that were actually safe on block, let alone allowed significant frame advantage to catch opponents who mash out of stun unawares. This ultimately led to throw punishment being the most effective way of dealing guaranteed damage making the game more defensive and slower paced in higher levels of play. Dead or Alive 5 fixed this by allowing guard breaks and some strikes to become safe (and even neutral) on block, balancing DOA5 out to be just as rewarding for playing offensively as well as defensively.

2) Dead or Alive 4 had universal offensive holds. In theory, it would sound great at first because everyone has a command throw that goes through attacks. But combined with having every move track, the meta was exactly the same for the entire cast to deal damage, and whatever individuality that strikers and grapplers had was lost with this universal mechanic. Dead or Alive 5 not only fixed this by having only some moves track the opponent, they gave the offensive hold mechanic to all the grapplers, Leifang, and Hayabusa.

3) Dead or Alive 4 - at least after the 4.1 patch - removed all unholdable stuns, which would've opened guaranteed situations for non-grappler characters. Furthermore, you could even hold from a wall splat. The reason these were bad design choices competitively was for one reason: It defeats the purpose of the defender trying to avoid being put in such a dangerous position in the first place, and does little to award the aggressor for putting them in that dangerous position. The defender could simply hold without fear of being jeopardized for guessing too much out of stun, and without unholdable stuns to set up, the aggressor still has to fear having the offensive pressure lost through one lucky hold. Dead or Alive 5 balanced this out by not only adding several types of unholdable stuns, but making it impossible to use holds from a wall splat since your body won't be touching the ground, rewarding the aggressor for putting the opponent in that position. Of course, the defender could still hold out of some stuns, but they have limited times to guess depending on the setup.

Before you make assumptions about me and my intentions here, I am in no way, shape, or form saying that DOA4 was not a fun game to play, and I'm not "trashing" the people who still enjoy it. For me, this was the first DOA game I truly started leveling up at with the competitive community, and I had my share of friendships made along the way. I have lots of fond memories of it during that time, and I'll admit I have a little fun going back to it from time to time for nostalgia's sake.

Furthermore, I'll go so far to admit that like some who defend this game to the death to this day, I too thought the game had no flaws on a competitive level. But as DOA5 came along and I was shown DOA4's flaws compared to 5, it gradually started to make more sense why - despite its big push in CGS and one-time showing at Evo - it was a flawed competitive 3D fighting game. I was proven wrong, and I felt compelled to at least try to share my flawed perception of the game then compared to now through this post. It also didn't help that throughout DOA4's entire lifespan, it has only received one patch, and it worsened the game's competitive nature as opposed to improving it. DOA5, in comparison, had far more support from Team Ninja to address and even balance the game further, especially with the inclusion of new DLC characters.

If there is one thing I can say I preferred to DOA4 competitively compared to 5, it was its use of the ground game. It was consistent, and easy to understand across the board: If the opponent doesn't techroll, it's a free 2k, and a second low attack of your choosing to force the opponent up in a specific position. THIS is the ground game I would personally love to see come back. Also, tag was more balanced here than in DOA5, as the gravity in tag was unchanged from the singles format. However, these the only good things I can say about DOA4 competitively.

All things considered, Dead or Alive 5 is not a broken game, no. If anything, it was the game that broke the shackles that were holding back DOA4 competitively. However, I still believe DOA4 is still a fun game to play in its own right, and if that's what you prefer to play, you do you. I'm not here to judge anyone's tastes, only provide understanding of why competitive players don't think highly of DOA4 as a competitive game compared to 5.

More of this Awesmic and less of the "victim" Awesmic please! :thumbs up:
 

ryu_highabusa

Well-Known Member
Since when did this Dead or Alive 4 good game vs bad game argument start? When Dead or Alive 5 existed or 12 years ago?
https://web.archive.org/web/2006081...t=25&sid=b8506d60bd4c209fbd9e2087c2486f0d

Lol where are all these people that like DoA4 suddenly coming from? There sure as hell were not around when the game needed some players to get an offline scene off the ground…
No joke: https://web.archive.org/web/20101206202744/http://www.doacentral.com:80/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26404
 
Last edited:

Force_of_Nature

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor

LearnMathPls

New Member
DOA4:
Holds beat Stuns. H+1, S-1
Stuns beat Throws. S=0, T-1
Stuns beat OH. S+1, OH-1
Attacks beat Stuns. A+1, S=0
Throws beat Holds. T=0, H=0
OH beat Holds. OH=0, H-1
Holds beat Attacks. H=0, A=0
OH beat Attacks. OH+1, A-1
Attacks beat Throws. A=0, T-1
Throws beat OH. T=0, OH=0
=
•Throws = 0
•OH = 0
•Holds = 0
•Attacks = 0
•Stuns = 0
P e r f e c t
B a l a n c e
G a m e p l a y

DOA5:
Stuns beat Holds. S+1, H-1
Stuns beat Throws. S+2, T-1
Stuns beat OH. S+3, OH-1
Attacks beat Stuns. A+1, S+2
SSA's beat Stuns. SSA+1, S+1
Throws beat Holds. T=0, H-2
OH beat Holds. OH=0, H-3
Holds beat Attacks. H-2, A=0
SSA's beat Attacks. SSA+2, A-1
OH beat Attacks. OH+1, A-2
OH beat SSA's. OH+2, SSA+1
Holds beat SSA's. H-2, SSA=0
SSA's beat Throws. SSA+1, T-1
Attacks beat Throws. A-1, T-2
Throws beat OH. T-1, OH+1
=
•Throws = -1
•OH = 1
•Holds = -1
•Attacks = -1
•SSA's = 1
•Stuns = 1
OH, SSA's and Stuns rule the game, while the core of DOA: Throws, Holds, and Strikes, are worth much less. You can use SSA's to create unholdable stun and can only capitalize by using attacks. Throws do nothing to stun, OH do nothing to stun, another sidestep isn't valuable, so all you can do is attack. Technically SSA's = 2 because SSA's beat also Holds by being a better defense option.
All the difference in the world it makes to just have unholdable stun situations and universal sidesteps. Pair this stuff with how OH is no longer universal and you get a bunch of characters that prioritize on SSA's, Stuns and Attacks ONLY, and cannot OH opponent SSA's giving them trash priority.

DoA5 was not DoA. It wasn't even really a fighting game. It was just a dumb, unbalanced flyover state.
The best characters in DOA5 have OH, great striking combos, and great sidesteps options such as Universal + Unique, while the best DOA5 players can reach the skill ceiling without understanding Throws or Holds, AKA 2/3rds of what the entire DOA franchise has been built on

So why do people like DOA4? Simple.
Cause they're smarter than you and don't endlessly complain about losing.
 

Shirataki Tsume

Well-Known Member
Wow, this is a mark in someone's FGC history book.
But yeah, haha, DOA4 was quite the game! I'll give it credit that it released at a very opportune time with a bit of a lull in FG releases, whereas DOA5 released at a pretty dumb time with too much competition from a crowded FG year (including releasing 2 weeks after TTT2).
And Soul Calibur III was also released near Dead or Alive 4's release date, and that game didn't engage a lot of people because it was broken and buggy, and those damn fools had to make it a PS2-only game when the Xbox 360 was very close to its release and everyone was about to move on to a next gen console. Comparing it to DOA4, it's a game on a next gen console during that time with online play.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
DOA4:
Holds beat Stuns. H+1, S-1
Stuns beat Throws. S=0, T-1
Stuns beat OH. S+1, OH-1
Attacks beat Stuns. A+1, S=0
Throws beat Holds. T=0, H=0
OH beat Holds. OH=0, H-1
Holds beat Attacks. H=0, A=0
OH beat Attacks. OH+1, A-1
Attacks beat Throws. A=0, T-1
Throws beat OH. T=0, OH=0
=
•Throws = 0
•OH = 0
•Holds = 0
•Attacks = 0
•Stuns = 0
P e r f e c t
B a l a n c e
G a m e p l a y

DOA5:
Stuns beat Holds. S+1, H-1
Stuns beat Throws. S+2, T-1
Stuns beat OH. S+3, OH-1
Attacks beat Stuns. A+1, S+2
SSA's beat Stuns. SSA+1, S+1
Throws beat Holds. T=0, H-2
OH beat Holds. OH=0, H-3
Holds beat Attacks. H-2, A=0
SSA's beat Attacks. SSA+2, A-1
OH beat Attacks. OH+1, A-2
OH beat SSA's. OH+2, SSA+1
Holds beat SSA's. H-2, SSA=0
SSA's beat Throws. SSA+1, T-1
Attacks beat Throws. A-1, T-2
Throws beat OH. T-1, OH+1
=
•Throws = -1
•OH = 1
•Holds = -1
•Attacks = -1
•SSA's = 1
•Stuns = 1
OH, SSA's and Stuns rule the game, while the core of DOA: Throws, Holds, and Strikes, are worth much less. You can use SSA's to create unholdable stun and can only capitalize by using attacks. Throws do nothing to stun, OH do nothing to stun, another sidestep isn't valuable, so all you can do is attack. Technically SSA's = 2 because SSA's beat also Holds by being a better defense option.
All the difference in the world it makes to just have unholdable stun situations and universal sidesteps. Pair this stuff with how OH is no longer universal and you get a bunch of characters that prioritize on SSA's, Stuns and Attacks ONLY, and cannot OH opponent SSA's giving them trash priority.

DoA5 was not DoA. It wasn't even really a fighting game. It was just a dumb, unbalanced flyover state.
The best characters in DOA5 have OH, great striking combos, and great sidesteps options such as Universal + Unique, while the best DOA5 players can reach the skill ceiling without understanding Throws or Holds, AKA 2/3rds of what the entire DOA franchise has been built on

So why do people like DOA4? Simple.
Cause they're smarter than you and don't endlessly complain about losing.

I don't even know how to reply to this....

Throws do nothing to stun, OH do nothing to stun, another sidestep isn't valuable

Like....what???? Its been like that forever.

SSA's beat Throws. SSA+1, T-1

And wtf is SSA? Side step attack? All side steps lose to a throw man.

I'm not trying to come across in the wrong way dude, but you gotta have basic understanding of things if you're gonna make posts like this, not that whatever you came up with had any meaning. "Perfect balance" is what made DoA4 so unplayable to begin with.
 

LearnMathPls

New Member
Jann Lee has been getting around throws with :2::2::P:/:8::8::P: easily.

Throws do nothing to stun, OH do nothing to stun, another sidestep isn't valuable
^ This is more about the prevalence of unholdable stun situations in DOA5, where because stun didn't mean as much in DOA4 it never fully restricted the attacker from options. In guaranteed stun situations, theres no mindgame to play to see if an opponent will try holding so you're just given a free opportunity for damage, but only through strikes. This hurts damage opportunity for traditionally throw based grappling characters who might have otherwise had a chance for an HiC Throw previously.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
LearnMathPls said:
Jann Lee has been getting around throws with :2::2::P:/:8::8::P: easily.
No he hasn't.

Again, all side steps lose to throws. If you're getting hit, then you missed the window of the side step and are throwing during the active frames of the attack.


LearnMathPls said:
^ This is more about the prevalence of unholdable stun situations in DOA5, where because stun didn't mean as much in DOA4 it never fully restricted the attacker from options. In guaranteed stun situations, theres no mindgame to play to see if an opponent will try holding so you're just given a free opportunity for damage, but only through strikes. This hurts damage opportunity for traditionally throw based grappling characters who might have otherwise had a chance for an HiC Throw previously.

First of all, have you played a good Bayman or Bass player? Grapplers are by no means struggling in DoA5. Bayman is straight up scary.

Secondly, most of the deep stuns can be staggered out of and easily avoid the CB setups. The few deep stuns that do guarantee follow ups require a setup that can be avoided.

LearnMathPls said:
Cause they're smarter than you and don't endlessly complain about losing.

If they are smarter, why are they getting caught in those situations in 5 to begin with? What happened to the mind games prior to getting caught in that setup where you had 5-6 chances to stop it? You say we complain about losing, but you're complaining about not being able to recover because your initial defense was poor.
 

Force_of_Nature

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Bayman was 'intended' for advanced counters however he does still maintain properties of a grappler by having the most OH's in the game as well as a ground throw. Tengu was given adequate compensation by having the best pounce as well as the only character to have an aerial low-throw & an aerial throw. His offensive hold was also dangerous near the wall & his combos provided opportunities to get the opponent to the wall faster. His wall pressure was very dangerous.




Dead or Alive 4 Triangle System (Nothing is guaranteed-Everything is permitted)
Strikes: Stuns - Crushes (interruptions) - Launchers (Juggles)
Counters: Counter from block- counter from neutral - counter from stun
Grabs: Grab on block - Grab on counter - Grab on strike (completing the Triangle system by allowing a grab in neutral with an Offensive Hold)

Dead or Alive 5 Triangle System (The best defense is a good offense)
Strikes: Stuns - Crushes (interruptions) - Launchers (Juggles) - SS attack - CB (provides the best stun in the game a 'numb' stun-always ) - PB - PL (super easy to do just buffer a grab or strike) - (Environmental Hazards only accessed by a PB)
Counters:
Counter from block- counter from neutral - counter from stun
Grabs: Grab on block - Grab on counter - Grab on strike (completing the Triangle system by allowing a grab in neutral- though not every character had one so technically it wouldn't count)

The ratio in Doa4 was 3-3-3

The ration in DoA5 was 7- 3 -3 (2- if not counting universal OH)
* 5 would have been a spectacular game had all those elements been removed - TN failed to realize that the Triangle System is unique enough.
(SS is a great universal mechanic & really all that was needed to be introduced-it's mainly the other stuff I'm more concerned about)

Though Offensive Holds were 'universal' in DoA4 every character had a unique Offensive Hold with a respectable punish if used incorrectly. In DoA5 5f & 7f grabs were universal for the entire roster (likely to balance against the SS but it overall hurt the balance of the game). Characters with re-grab opportunities were especially dangerous for this reason. (Gen-fu & Christie in particular)

Offensive Holds were also balanced uneven among the roster in DoA5

(The faster characters had the best OH's)


Sabaki's:
Eliot, Leifang*, Hitomi & Kokoro - Total (4)

Offensive Holds:
Kasumi, Alpha, Busa, Lisa, Tina, Jann, Bayman, Raidou, Bass, Momiji, Leon, Marie Rose, Nyo-tengu, Mila, Brad-Wong, Phase 4- Total (16)

No offensive holds- no sabaki's

Zack, Rig ,Ayane, Hayate, Ein, Gen-fu, & last but not least Rachel - Total (7)

(Of these characters Gen-Fu is the only to have a parry w/ no sabaki or OH)

The exceptions being Helena, Christie, & the VF characters--- Characters I didn't count: Naotora, Honoka, Mai



DoA5 had a roster of 36 characters - Practically impossible to balance a game with this many characters.
DoA4 had a roster of 22 characters - Much easier to balance- Also VF5 had a character roster of 20 characters so it can be reasonably considered that 20 is about the cap of characters a game can have before becoming too hard to balance & thus initiating a universal mechanic.


*** I want everyone to breeze over all this as the game is no longer relevant but yes it did suffer quite a tragedy.*** DOA4 was the most fluid & realistic of the franchise . A handful of people really developed the meta years later but 5 (still a fluid & fast game that I enjoyed) was given prominence. My conclusion is that DoA4 simply condenses everything DoA5 has into a more balanced triangle system. Character balance is better in 5 but overall system balance is better in 4. 5 puts more emphasis on strikes while 4 puts more emphasis on neutral

The worst part is . . Doa4 was released the same year as Youtube (2005) & not many people had video-capturing devices to truly show some of the more advanced aspects of the game such as the fluid tech-system (the best tech system of 3D fighters guaranteed no contest) as well as good mix-ups & movement. The game just truly suffered from lack of people wanting to push the meta; no match-ups were drastically unfair either as each character had their own unique way to win & test the opponent. Than you get all these gimmick mechanics (& characters) that were never true to the triangle system in the first place & it just blows imbalances already present in the game even further out of proportion. Now a lot of people have video-capturing devices & DoA4 was left in the dust as other games were given more publicity throughout the years. Similar can be said of previous installments which leads me to believe that Team Ninja (as well as Itagaki) made some poor choices as new games weren't necessary. Should have taken a step back & just continued with Dead or Alive 3 Ultimate & Dead or Alive 4 Ultimate instead of DoA 5 & 6. It really saddens me . . . I do have one practical solution that is possible for previous installments to be revived though it is better just to hold my peace as there is a such thing as being too late. . . As for DoA6 I'll just wait until the game comes out to speak on it (No more tag means I can't learn at double the speed ;..( *sigh

Perhaps in years to come I would love to show all the unique character tech & stage tech as well as some cool mix-ups. I've collected much tech throughout the years


Dude, please stop. You don't have to do this.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Bayman was 'intended' for advanced counters however he does still maintain properties of a grappler by having the most OH's in the game as well as a ground throw. Tengu was given adequate compensation by having the best pounce as well as the only character to have an aerial low-throw & an aerial throw. His offensive hold was also dangerous near the wall & his combos provided opportunities to get the opponent to the wall faster. His wall pressure was very dangerous.




Dead or Alive 4 Triangle System (Nothing is guaranteed-Everything is permitted)
Strikes: Stuns - Crushes (interruptions) - Launchers (Juggles)
Counters: Counter from block- counter from neutral - counter from stun
Grabs: Grab on block - Grab on counter - Grab on strike (completing the Triangle system by allowing a grab in neutral with an Offensive Hold)

Dead or Alive 5 Triangle System (The best defense is a good offense)
Strikes: Stuns - Crushes (interruptions) - Launchers (Juggles) - SS attack - CB (provides the best stun in the game a 'numb' stun-always ) - PB - PL (super easy to do just buffer a grab or strike) - (Environmental Hazards only accessed by a PB)
Counters:
Counter from block- counter from neutral - counter from stun
Grabs: Grab on block - Grab on counter - Grab on strike (completing the Triangle system by allowing a grab in neutral- though not every character had one so technically it wouldn't count)

The ratio in Doa4 was 3-3-3

The ration in DoA5 was 7- 3 -3 (2- if not counting universal OH)
* 5 would have been a spectacular game had all those elements been removed - TN failed to realize that the Triangle System is unique enough.
(SS is a great universal mechanic & really all that was needed to be introduced-it's mainly the other stuff I'm more concerned about)

Though Offensive Holds were 'universal' in DoA4 every character had a unique Offensive Hold with a respectable punish if used incorrectly. In DoA5 5f & 7f grabs were universal for the entire roster (likely to balance against the SS but it overall hurt the balance of the game). Characters with re-grab opportunities were especially dangerous for this reason. (Gen-fu & Christie in particular)

Offensive Holds were also balanced uneven among the roster in DoA5

(The faster characters had the best OH's)


Sabaki's:
Eliot, Leifang*, Hitomi & Kokoro - Total (4)

Offensive Holds:
Kasumi, Alpha, Busa, Lisa, Tina, Jann, Bayman, Raidou, Bass, Momiji, Leon, Marie Rose, Nyo-tengu, Mila, Brad-Wong, Phase 4- Total (16)

No offensive holds- no sabaki's

Zack, Rig ,Ayane, Hayate, Ein, Gen-fu, & last but not least Rachel - Total (7)

(Of these characters Gen-Fu is the only to have a parry w/ no sabaki or OH)

The exceptions being Helena, Christie, & the VF characters--- Characters I didn't count: Naotora, Honoka, Mai



DoA5 had a roster of 36 characters - Practically impossible to balance a game with this many characters.
DoA4 had a roster of 22 characters - Much easier to balance- Also VF5 had a character roster of 20 characters so it can be reasonably considered that 20 is about the cap of characters a game can have before becoming too hard to balance & thus initiating a universal mechanic.


*** I want everyone to breeze over all this as the game is no longer relevant but yes it did suffer quite a tragedy.*** DOA4 was the most fluid & realistic of the franchise . A handful of people really developed the meta years later but 5 (still a fluid & fast game that I enjoyed) was given prominence. My conclusion is that DoA4 simply condenses everything DoA5 has into a more balanced triangle system. 5 puts more emphasis on strikes while 4 puts more emphasis on neutral

The worst part is . . Doa4 was released the same year as Youtube (2005) & not many people had video-capturing devices to truly show some of the more advanced aspects of the game such as the fluid tech-system (the best tech system of 3D fighters guaranteed no contest) as well as good mix-ups & movement. The game just truly suffered from lack of people wanting to push the meta; no match-ups were drastically unfair either as each character had their own unique way to win & test the opponent. Than you get all these gimmick mechanics (& characters) that were never true to the triangle system in the first place & it just blows imbalances already present in the game even further out of proportion. Now a lot of people have video-capturing devices & DoA4 was left in the dust as other games were given more publicity throughout the years. Similar can be said of previous installments which leads me to believe that Team Ninja (as well as Itagaki) made some poor choices as new games weren't necessary. Should have taken a step back & just continued with Dead or Alive 3 Ultimate & Dead or Alive 4 Ultimate instead of DoA 5 & 6. It really saddens me . . . I do have one practical solution that is possible for previous installments to be revived though it is better just to hold my peace as there is a such thing as being too late. . . As for DoA6 I'll just wait until the game comes out to speak on it (No more tag means I can't learn at double the speed ;..( *sigh

Perhaps in years to come I would love to show all the unique character tech & stage tech as well as some cool mix-ups. I've collected much tech throughout the years


Whats with this ratio stuff? That's not an indication of a good game, and the fact that everything was "balanced" in 4 is the reason why it was competitively bad. It lead to everyone playing the same meta, but when everyone plays the same meta it leads to a design where slower characters instantly can't compete. Again, this is why only 3 characters were actually competitive viable in 4 where as in 5 pretty much the entire cast is viable.

Also, this is the second time I've read someone say Hitomi has a sabaki. She 100% does not have one. A sabaki is a hold built into an attack. Hitomi's parry and the attack follow up are not one move. The attacks are follow ups to a parry that only come out if the parry didn't catch anything.

As for the ultimate thing. No, just no. DoA4 is dead and needs to stay dead. It was not a good fighting game.
 

Raansu

Well-Known Member
Oh yeah I know, I just find it hilariously weird that DOA4 is a trend post during DOA6's debut. Not even DOA2 or DOA3 had this much topic talks compared to this game.

Probably because the skill ceiling was so low in 4. More people were "good" at 4 than 2 or 5. Hell I'll be the first to admit that I was better in 4 than 5.
 

Force_of_Nature

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Nothing will change my friend

Dead or Strike 5: Last Rip-off
Dead or Strike 5 ways to come back
Dead or Strike 6 new mechanics for every character

My skill in Dead or Alive 4 is like that of a Grandmaster Chess player; you may have the same pieces as me but if you think you even have a chance you are sadly mistaken

Can a mod close this thread please? @Brute

Don't want any DOA4 dick-measuring contests.
 
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