System How do you feel about the patch notes and stage?

We've already seen that a new character from Samurai Warriors is coming out next month... but at least the new stage is from DOA; Azuchi -- from DOA3. This classic level not only looks gorgeous but has plenty of walls and torches to send people through staying true to the importance of environmental damage.

The patch notes are here, and they have stirred up a lot of controversy in the competitive group. From Sweet Revenge being salty about Genfu's 44P nerf, to Sly Bass mentioning Akira's changes. Some of the adjustments are still a little hard to understand, but the translations will give you a good idea what to expect.

 

The only thing that bothers me about Christie is that she's one of the fastest characters in the game like Kasumi and Pai, but her damage output is much higher than them... even with lower hold and throw damage, they're still pretty damaging anyway and don't really justify anything in my opinion. Other than that, she's fine as is.

 

A proper Christie nerf would be propably be increased unsafety an certain string enders, hitbox adjustments on certain moves and removal of guaranteed options. It can't be that a character who has such a high speed, multifaceted string variation, many fast lows and good range on pokes is still able to beat out other ranged tools easily by simply PPPing across the stage, ducking even mids. She's way too evasive when performing normal pokes and strings, that's what her stance should actually be for.

While it is needless to say that this applies to grapplers in general, even fast strikers can't make use of their high attacks to interrupt her poking game due to her simply ducking them, allowing her even to strike straight out of disadvantage regardless.

Due to being so dangerous in close range with having tons of strings and quick launchers, she also does not deserve to have guaranteed critical burst options out of non-environmental situations. Something like this is absolutely legitimate on characters like Hayabusa who struggle with openers and unsafety while being supposed to shine in the stun game once the opponent is opened, but not for a strikers who's only real weakness is a lack of damage on throws.

All you're really telling me is that people need to get better at the match up. A lot of you guys and gals put way too much emphasis on just what a character has and not learn what your character can actually do to anti anything.

If you are getting hit by PPPPP or 6PP at range, you are simply not spacing yourself and your preferred move out correctly. I can hit just about "any" ground mid or high with Ayane's 2P with proper spacing. Hell, I do that often with my 6P and 5K.

Dumbing down characters because people refuse improve in a match up doesn't make you a better player, at all. And that's the problem with a lot of people playing this game.

Take the time to break down a character and see what you can do against what you find to be so problematic.

 

...

You are talking about not to take a look at what a character has while mentioning what one (your) character can do in the same breath. Ok.

"Breaking down a match up / character" doesn't mean to compare who's got the most costumes.

Just because character A can do something against move X from character B or not doesn't mean nothing needs to be changed. It always matters how much risk / reward is included for both. This comparison needs to be done with every character in the roster. Christie match-ups have been broken down quite a lot by people, either in open discussions or private conversations. Mostly ending up in the same result. I don't think we need to argue that Christe is a low risk/high reward character in most situations.

This game offers a great triangle system which should be capable of and also used for relativizing imbalance and said risk/reward factor among the characters. If it wouldn't, we would see counterpicks all day, resulting in the same match-ups every single tournament. And now guess why we saw Christe almost always in top 8 and also mostly in grand finals within the last years.

 

I mentioned Ayane as pure example, I can do something quite well as that with any character I am playing.

Just because character A can do something against move X from character B or not doesn't mean nothing needs to be changed.

That's exactly what it means, lol. If you find solutions to the problem, then you are understanding how to deal with something.

It always matters how much risk / reward is included for both. This comparison needs to be done with every character in the roster.

So why aren't you and everyone else doing that, then? Apparently no one really understands the match up if they are still having that much trouble with it.

Xcalibur Bladez bodied me at NEC in top 8 because I don't have the best practice in the Eliot match up. What have I been doing since then? Practicing out the match up. All there is to it.

I don't have this kind of trouble with the Christie match up. Because I've practiced the match up. I don't see Xcalibur Bladez having as much trouble, because he's been studying it.

Christie match-ups have been broken down quite a lot by people, either in open discussions or private conversations. Mostly ending up in the same result.

People have been playing theory-oh in discussion, no one has broken down anything in the match up. Otherwise players would have a better understanding of playing a match up out. The most I see people do is find decent tech with a character they play. I don't see hardly anyone breaking down specifics in match ups. Describing basic tools is not breaking down a match up.

The most important part about what I said;

Dumbing down characters because people refuse to improve in a match up doesn't make you a better player, at all. And that's the problem with a lot of people playing this game.

Take the time to break down a character and see what you can do against what you find to be so problematic.

 

 

So why aren't you and everyone else doing that, then? Apparently no one really understands the match up if they are still having that much trouble with it.

I was about to say you might want to read the three sentences I wrote under this again, but then I saw your last paragraph. Well, if you think nothing as been broken down properly yet, then it is like that. I say things are pretty clear for the most part.

I don't have this kind of trouble with the Christie match up. Because I've practiced the match up. I don't see Xcalibur Bladez having as much trouble, because he's been studying it.

Taking the achievement or performance of a single player into consideration for buffs or nerfs isn't the way to go in my opinion. This game is still rock, paper scissors and there will always be someone who's better at it. Also, did you ask Kwiggle if he was studying the Eliot match-up? XCal was also dominating Kwiggle as he was using Kasumi, winning games 3-0 but had to take losses and pretty close rounds as soon as said character came into play again.

The most I see people do is find decent tech with a character they play. I don't see hardly anyone breaking down specifics in match ups. Describing basic tools is not breaking down a match up.

You made a question on what could be a proper nerf for Christie and I gave you three points on where to start at. Instead of asking why I listed those points and which moves could be changed how in particular, you started talking about that people need to break down match-ups properly if they find things problematic.

Since you rather like to lump things together that quickly and seem to be convinced that there's nothing problematic about Christie, then I wonder why you were even asking.

 

Yet you still haven't presented me with anything implying this character is in need of the nerf bat. Literally, everything you said in your first post towards mine implies you and a lot of people need to study character match ups more.

XCal was dominating Kwiggle as he was using Kasumi, winning games 3-0 but had to take losses and pretty close rounds as soon as said character came into play again.

Didn't say anything about Winter Brawl at all. Look at the last two or three tournaments prior to Winter Brawl, where these players have fought and take a closer look at the change of pace and information being taken and given between the players.

Well, if you think nothing as been broken down properly yet, then it is like that. I say things are pretty clear for the most part.

No, no things are not pretty clear for the most part. I STILL see people getting hit and trying to low hold out of mid strings too often. People playing this game still have a long way to go. Much less learn to actually discuss competitive aspects of the game. Such as character and game balance.

My last two posts are very clear about why anyone would be so quick to jump to nerf this, nerf that in a balanced game that has nothing that is breaking the game in competitive play.

This is my last response on this subject and thread.

 

Yet you still haven't presented me with anything implying this character is in need of the nerf bat. Literally, everything you said in your first post towards mine implies you and a lot of people need to study character match ups more.

This is my last response on this subject and thread.

My first post quoting your question about what could be nerfed on Christie gave you a general direction on where to start. I'm not going to write an essay containing more details until I'm sure the person I'm talking to shows some insight and interest in my opinion. I can spend my time on more enjoyable things instead, knowing it's not wasted like it happened quite often in the past when teaching newcomers who turned out to be DOA day flies.

Unfortunately, you seem to be uninterested too since you rather prefer to use the "learn the matchup" phrase as discussion stopper, lumping things - as I wrote in my previous post - together really quickly.

And right, you did not say anything about Winter Brawl. I did though. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

But fine, do as you like. Though it would not be amiss if I explain one of the points I stated a bit more for everyone else anyway, now that I'm already writing this post.


So, referring to this

Due to being so dangerous in close range with having tons of strings and quick launchers, she also does not deserve to have guaranteed critical burst options out of non-environmental situations. Something like this is absolutely legitimate on characters like Hayabusa who struggle with openers and unsafety while being supposed to shine in the stun game once the opponent is opened, but not for a strikers who's only real weakness is a lack of damage on throws.

I'd like to point out first that this is not even something "match up" related. It aims to balance out Christies own risk / reward factor for a move she can use against every character of choice once she landed a stun. Landing a stun as Christie is something that will happen sooner or later in every fight, regardless who the opponent is and what kind of moveset he offers.

Therefore no, I do not need to "study" any match-up or take a look at what kind of tools I have because a stun situation is the same for every character in the game, containing the same defensive options: slow escaping, holding, doing nothing or mashing an attack button.

In particular, I'm talking about Christies 214P. While it executes in 32 frames which is pretty slow, it is still an exorbitant good comeback move for a character like her because of the following things:

• It is a mid punch, therefore not crushable or avoidable by low holds
• It causes a sitdown stun, a normal one on an opponent that is isn't stunned (+25, no SE) and a 'deeper' one on someone who is in stun status (+ 42 no SE)
• Only fastest slow escape can prevent her from launching immediately after it. However, she can also (guaranteed) extend the stun with e.g. 6P, resulting in still being at 20 advantage
• The 'deep' sit down stun guarantees a critical burst if 214P reaches stun level three
• It is only -7 on block
• The animation itself makes her stepping backwards, meaning she will evade and outbeat retaliation attempts that are done with counterpoke tools which are usually fast but do not reach a higher distance than ~1.60m.

Since Christie has speed advantage in terms of mids and highs in most match ups, low jabs are propably the best way for other characters to get her off. However, these won't reach her on given move because she can land it from up to 2 meter.

Players who face Christe have to do frequent guessing for not getting hit by one of her string variations. Holding in stun is not always an option due to her having reset throws, however, always holding mid punch if doing so isn't as well. If the Christie player notices he's getting held mid punch too much, he can easily switch to other moves without suffering speed.

214P is at least a linear move, but sidestepping is not an option in stun and it does not promise much success on a string heavy striker who's got many different string enders and opportunities to delay some, making them retracking.

Slow escaping stuns also barely works on Christie. Her 9 frame jab reaches 1.34m, her 11 frame mid punch (6P) 1.76m, her 14 frame mid kick (H+K) 1.80m. She can launch with moves that require about 15 or 16 frames execution. This is more than enough speed and range to extend a stun quickly and to get a juggle done on people, even if they slow escape. Just as comparison, Kasumi's jab reaches 1.18m, her 6P 1.37m, her 3K 1.68m.

Even if the opponent slow escapes 214P, there will not happen much to the Christie player due to it having such a minor disadvantage on block. She can either keep hitting buttons and might be able to land the next hi-counter stun immediately, or she won't take much damage from throws that are able to punish that move properly.

Considering these things and that 214P allows her to deal almost guaranteed damage starting from 90 up to 130 of a single correct guess (using a mid punch or not) after landing a counter-hit stun even on super-heavyweights while she does not need to pay any attention on the environment or stances, at least the removal of the guaranteed critical burst option should be justifiable. Or an significant increase of disadvantage on block.

With that move, Christie players are able to skip both the need of guessing on a crucial hold as well as the requirement of being aware of environmental circumstances and the consequences on doing the wrong thing. It is a typical low risk, high reward move that is (in my opinion) misplaced on this character when seeing the whole extend of her toolset.

People are welcome to enlighten me if things aren't like I described. I am around in this forum to extend and offer my knowledge, wiping out mistakes and broaden my horizont by hearing other player's opinions in discussions, not for listening to accusations about not having studied enough lonely behind closed doors.

 

OK, so it looks like they are FINALLY trying to fix Hitomi's 9K hop kick. I have been complaining about that move for YEARS. 9K is a mid, but hardly EVER hits crouching opponents currently.

While it says it will hit 'squatting' opponents, that's still better than what it's doing now. The move is so unreliable now, but hopefully this will help!!

 

My first post quoting your question about what could be nerfed on Christie gave you a general direction on where to start. I'm not going to write an essay containing more details until I'm sure the person I'm talking to shows some insight and interest in my opinion. I can spend my time on more enjoyable things instead, knowing it's not wasted like it happened quite often in the past when teaching newcomers who turned out to be DOA day flies.

Unfortunately, you seem to be uninterested too since you rather prefer to use the "learn the matchup" phrase as discussion stopper, lumping things - as I wrote in my previous post - together really quickly.

And right, you did not say anything about Winter Brawl. I did though. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

But fine, do as you like. Though it would not be amiss if I explain one of the points I stated a bit more for everyone else anyway, now that I'm already writing this post.


So, referring to this



I'd like to point out first that this is not even something "match up" related. It aims to balance out Christies own risk / reward factor for a move she can use against every character of choice once she landed a stun. Landing a stun as Christie is something that will happen sooner or later in every fight, regardless who the opponent is and what kind of moveset he offers.

Therefore no, I do not need to "study" any match-up or take a look at what kind of tools I have because a stun situation is the same for every character in the game, containing the same defensive options: slow escaping, holding, doing nothing or mashing an attack button.

In particular, I'm talking about Christies 214P. While it executes in 32 frames which is pretty slow, it is still an exorbitant good comeback move for a character like her because of the following things:

• It is a mid punch, therefore not crushable or avoidable by low holds
• It causes a sitdown stun, a normal one on an opponent that is isn't stunned (+25, no SE) and a 'deeper' one on someone who is in stun status (+ 42 no SE)
• Only fastest slow escape can prevent her from launching immediately after it. However, she can also (guaranteed) extend the stun with e.g. 6P, resulting in still being at 20 advantage
• The 'deep' sit down stun guarantees a critical burst if 214P reaches stun level three
• It is only -7 on block
• The animation itself makes her stepping backwards, meaning she will evade and outbeat retaliation attempts that are done with counterpoke tools which are usually fast but do not reach a higher distance than ~1.60m.

Since Christie has speed advantage in terms of mids and highs in most match ups, low jabs are propably the best way for other characters to get her off. However, these won't reach her on given move because she can land it from up to 2 meter.

Players who face Christe have to do frequent guessing for not getting hit by one of her string variations. Holding in stun is not always an option due to her having reset throws, however, always holding mid punch if doing so isn't as well. If the Christie player notices he's getting held mid punch too much, he can easily switch to other moves without suffering speed.

214P is at least a linear move, but sidestepping is not an option in stun and it does not promise much success on a string heavy striker who's got many different string enders and opportunities to delay some, making them retracking.

Slow escaping stuns also barely works on Christie. Her 9 frame jab reaches 1.34m, her 11 frame mid punch (6P) 1.76m, her 14 frame mid kick (H+K) 1.80m. She can launch with moves that require about 15 or 16 frames execution. This is more than enough speed and range to extend a stun quickly and to get a juggle done on people, even if they slow escape. Just as comparison, Kasumi's jab reaches 1.18m, her 6P 1.37m, her 3K 1.68m.

Even if the opponent slow escapes 214P, there will not happen much to the Christie player due to it having such a minor disadvantage on block. She can either keep hitting buttons and might be able to land the next hi-counter stun immediately, or she won't take much damage from throws that are able to punish that move properly.

Considering these things and that 214P allows her to deal almost guaranteed damage starting from 90 up to 130 of a single correct guess (using a mid punch or not) after landing a counter-hit stun even on super-heavyweights while she does not need to pay any attention on the environment or stances, at least the removal of the guaranteed critical burst option should be justifiable. Or an significant increase of disadvantage on block.

With that move, Christie players are able to skip both the need of guessing on a crucial hold as well as the requirement of being aware of environmental circumstances and the consequences on doing the wrong thing. It is a typical low risk, high reward move that is (in my opinion) misplaced on this character when seeing the whole extend of her toolset.

People are welcome to enlighten me if things aren't like I described. I am around in this forum to extend and offer my knowledge, wiping out mistakes and broaden my horizont by hearing other player's opinions in discussions, not for listening to accusations about not having studied enough lonely behind closed doors.

One, you are totally right. Two, funny how you weren't going to write an essay at first... Then changed your mind. I understand it completely as an aspiring Eliot player. Her speed and range wins her almost everything compared to Sarah, Kasumi, and even Honoka. But, I guess Hajin always just "deals with it"

 

"deals with it"

with a 12F 2P that's +0 on hit and safe on guard.

 

with a 12F 2P that's +0 on hit and safe on guard.

Lmao, right?

 

with a 12F 2P that's +0 on hit and safe on guard.

My 2P is 15 frames and that can be a struggle lol

My only complaints about Christie is her 214P and string delay. 214P is definitely a BS move, why the hell would she have a guaranteed critical burst?!

 

My 2P is 15 frames and that can be a struggle lol

My only complaints about Christie is her 214P and string delay. 214P is definitely a BS move, why the hell would she have a guaranteed critical burst?!

Mine is 17F and -5 on NH.

 

Mine is 17F and -5 on NH.

That's a hard life... It's probably slow because of the follow up.

His 2K is 16 frames and +0 on NH but even so, that's hard lol

 

That's a hard life... It's probably slow because of the follow up.

His 2K is 16 frames and +0 on NH but even so, that's hard lol

Sadly, his 2K doesn't high crush.

 

Lol, that was a fun read. Somewhat pleasurable.

 

It's good to see Azuchi stage make a return. As for Naotora, she seem like a whiny downer. But her fighting moves looks MUCH better than NyoTengu, Marie Rose and Honoka from a DLC point of view. I can't wait to play as her.

 

It's nerfed or nothing

 

Did Brad get changes?