Balance DOA6 Wishlist

[Tenryuga]

Usually when moves have great reward on counterhit they are ass on NH. Rather than buffing the NH frames it would be more beneficial to add more delayable frames in between 3PP.

Also when coming up with buffs you have to be able to answer the question "why?". If you can't answer that question properly then the ideas you have are not necessary because if they were a proper answer would be given.

IMO things you suggest aren't for balance; They would be more appropriate for DOA6 Hayate ideas.

 

[TakedaZX]

Usually when moves have great reward on counterhit they are ass on NH. Rather than buffing the NH frames it would be more beneficial to add more delayable frames in between 3PP.

Also when coming up with buffs you have to be able to answer the question "why?". If you can't answer that question properly then the ideas you have are not necessary because if they were a proper answer would be given.

IMO things you suggest aren't for balance; They would be more appropriate for DOA6 Hayate ideas.

The keyword in your claim is [usually] 3PP in the case of Gen Fu has a more consistent crush on 3P and he's in crouching status for 33P/3PP so he's still evading highs better. It isn't DOA4 3P+K but it's still really good... and we know what 3PP offers on CH+ for Fu yet he's still rocking +5 on it and he's got that 11i mid. Why does he need that? Regardless I settled for +3 and below because +5 would be overkill anyway.

3PP getting more delay frames is something I would take too. I just thinking because of the animation, it may not have been as simple for TN to do without it becoming funky to look at. I thought of the same thing awhile ago before they fixed 3P.

For [most] of the changes, I can agree... they're more so to be considered for DOA6. Since everyone wants to bully off of that aspect @Allan Paris, can you remove the #BalanceTag and change the topic to DOA6 Wishlist?

Honestly a few could still make it here, specifically the Wind Dash Kick changes + 4H+K because they have the data for both kicks and effects + launch heights. 6P, 66P, and PP6P's at -10 on block and NH (excluding 66P) and the tracking errors are also realistic so you can't say all are "DOA6 ideas".

 

[Tenryuga]

well not all of it is. Im more talking about the new transitions and stuff of that sort.

 

[TakedaZX]

well not all of it is. Im more talking about the new transitions and stuff of that sort.

Yea which I can agree on. Assuming the launcher was brought back, it is silly to give him 3K and H+K into it. Less so for H+K but definitely for 3K. But something like 9PPP/9PK/6PPP, I told you my reasons behind those pertaining to Ein. It wasn't necessarily look in the direction of buffs, but build up for both characters.

 

[Allan Paris]

Hayate has a larger arsenal of keep-out and get-in tools in DOA5 and DOA5u. I can only guess that TN put it in into his wind dash because of that. So now 4H+K is used for an offense/mix up more than it used for defense. Going back in the videos of PL and a couple other players back then, 4H+K was used on offense mostly anyway. Which it still can be and it's part of annoying mix up when you factor in everything else Hayate can do from range.

You need to sit down figure out what you are playing. That was one of the first things I said in here. This is not DOA4, figure out how his tools work now and fit them into a new game play because he no longer functions 100% how he use to back then.

2KK, and I see I have to keep saying it, allows him to be more aggressive because of the string pressure. That is not his game.

PPKK damage seemed to need to be nerfed but as it is now it's only 1 point more of damage than PP6PK so it's essentially pointless to ever use it. That's why I wanted it pushed up further but not back to DOA4 status. In DOA4 the damage was stupid, but the numbers I mentioned in the list are below the halfway point from now to then (I believe that's the case but it's been awhile since I wrote this up).

That one point of damage matters and I guess you forgot that this is an environmental game. When that juggle is done and a floor that breaks away or explodes add 5-10 points extra to the PPKK finish.

 

[Awesmic]

What do you guys think of Hayate being able to use Raijin from kick holds (as advanced holds) to complement Hayabusa's Izuna from punch holds?

 

[Allan Paris]

The juggles hurt just as much or more in some situations from that advanced hold. Him doing his Raijin from it would be cool to see and that's about it. Nakiryu would serve as a great option from 46H at an edge.

 

[TakedaZX]

What do you guys think of Hayate being able to use Raijin from kick holds (as advanced holds) to complement Hayabusa's Izuna from punch holds?

I like the idea, but I see more so Nakiryu than the Raijin. It would flow much better overall but for him to get 3 advanced holds for kicks... idk. It'd probably be fine just for 46H.

@Allan Paris
"Hayate has a larger arsenal of keep-out and get-in tools in DOA5 and DOA5u."

He does, but in reality just about all of those were created through taking away moves and recycling animations and they're all pretty much in the new wind dash. That being said, he didn't gain without loss. 236H matches up almost exactly with the new wind dash except it's more so get-in overall.

236H~P ==> 6P+K~P+K
236H~K ==> 6P+K~K
236H~2K ==> 6P+K~P
236H~T ==> 6P+K~T

66P is the same
66K~ is the same
4P is the same (while a NH stun)
236P is the same
236K is the same
214P is the same
2H+K is the same
7P is almost the same. (except now it's mid)

The only remotely [new] get-in is 66P+K and like charges raw. If anything, he lost tools but some were buffed, but even still they're underused and underrated (214K).

So I'll give you he gained tool to work with for 4P+K rivaling even Ayane's 1P+K, but that's simply two gains. Overall he's gotten even more of a buff to his offense with all of the mid punch charges added to the mix. In fact if you think about it, he's somewhat the mid point between DOA3, DOA4, and DOA5 Hayate. He has the frame traps from DOA3 through his guard breaks and such (safety in the case of 33KK and 9KKK which used to be frame advantage on block in 3), he carries the swag and style from DOA4 (mostly) and then he has the new things added from stances and etc. He's a great iteration of Hayate. Somethings just still appear clunky imo.

Yea I may not be a developer on the team but that's my opinion. Like I said don't get it twisted.

Also your PPKK argument is invalid.

1. Any launch that allows PPKK allows PPP, 7K which does 3 points more of damage (tested on NH with 66P, 8P)
2. Both cause environment damage with the floor so explosions and breaking floors all apply. I thought you knew.
3. PPKK can wall splat on PPK so there's potential to lose the juggle if you distance is judged wrong. PPP, 7K is wall friendly on the other hand. Why gamble PPKK?
4. PPKK's hitbox is glitchy especially in juggles. It's very prone to whiff for reasons pertaining to open and closed stance but it's never really consistent honestly.

The move is not good. The juggle is not good. It's just a mid point between PP6PK and PPP, 7K that doesn't belong as it is now.

So I know what the answer will be though. "Well then use PPP, 7K and adapt". Trust me, if I'm giving this information out, I'm using the tech.

 

[Allan Paris]

His range game is a lot better than what it was simply because of the addition to the wind dash. He was never as strong from range as he is now. The cancellation of it, the ground it covers, the attacks also add to the ground it covers, and the mid punch that is -4 on block coming out it. His mobility was a big buff from 236H coming from DOA4. I guess I should have said him being a lot more mobile increased his get-in and keep-out game. He did pick up new tools so in a sense that arsenal has grown larger than what it is was.. I'd really like for you to sit down and play DOA5U. Let DOA4 go it's ruining your perspective on the current game.

The only thing that matters with new iterations of the game is the system mechanics. After you learn how they work, figure out your character and how they work in that new system.

I am repeating myself talking to you now. If it this was something new that we hadn't extensively spoke on privately before I'd probably sit and do this little dance with you longer. I see you took out and crossed out things on that list of your's. That's all I wanted, for you to see how silly that stuff is. It's other things still on there that is not necessary but we have been through this all before.

 

[TakedaZX]

The main things changed in the system were the guaranteed damage/stun system mechanics, frame advantage on guard, and the addition of the sidestep system. If anything, sidestep weakens his ranged game since multiple moves can be free stepped to his back (214p, 214k, 236k especially at their tip ranges) and on top of that, all of them are linear on the first hit.

236h covers the same distance as 6p+k... but that's before the follow ups come into play. Being truthful, 236h has more potential range especially for the P and 2K follow ups considering the P makes an extra shuffle to get more distance and the 2K has a lot of drag.

The new wind dash is quicker and more accessible as 6p+k which is why I prefer it now. But even still I do think that the wind dash kick at least could stand the upgrade back to a launcher at -7. Damage at 20+20 at the lowest. But like you said, were just going in circles so we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Don't get me wrong, I love his new wind dash and this is just my opinion. I liked it better in Vanilla when it launched but it was a little underappreciated until the transitions came.

 

[Allan Paris]

alright, man.

 

[MaxiKilla]

Well unlike some characters(Eliot), Hayate got safe guard breaks and advantage to it. His throws are no higher than i12. Mostof his throws are i7 or lower which is insane. I don't care who you are. I don't care how long you've been playing DOA but no one can react to Hayate throws. It's annoying and few has knock back. A extremely safe character with TELEPORT! He's basically a wall. No matter what you do or where you go, he'll just close in on you and when he does it's over!

I'm not sure about his 6H+k but that move is also extreme. All I want is for Hayate to have more shirtless costumes to look cool and better background music to teabag to.

“No one can face me.."
That's the Hayate we all know and love.

 

[Jaguar360]

Well unlike some characters(Eliot), Hayate got safe guard breaks and advantage to it. His throws are no higher than i12. Mostof his throws are i7 or lower which is insane. I don't care who you are. I don't care how long you've been playing DOA but no one can react to Hayate throws. It's annoying and few has knock back. A extremely safe character with TELEPORT! He's basically a wall. No matter what you do or where you go, he'll just close in on you and when he does it's over!

I'm not sure about his 6H+k but that move is also extreme. All I want is for Hayate to have more shirtless costumes to look cool and better background music to teabag to.

“No one can face me.."
That's the Hayate we all know and love.

Um, so there's a good amount wrong here. Let me clear some things up:

Having throws between i7 and i12 is pretty standard. Grapplers like Bass and Bayman have throws as fast as i4 and there are only a few throws that are above i12 (Kasumi 33T, Alpha-152's B.U.R.S.T. and the jumping throws are the only ones I can think of). Pretty much the entire cast has an i7 neutral throw with their strongest and slowest throw being i12.

With the teleport, it's not like he can just do it in place. He can only teleport out of certain strings and doesn't get any guaranteed followups out of it or anything. It's a valid mixup. If you want to face stupid teleporting, play vs Hayate in DOA4 or Dimensions.

Hayate is safe, and he's good at spacing and getting in, but he doesn't really stand out in many other areas aside from that. You just have to adapt to the matchup. If you're having issues with Hayate, I can't see Ayane, Christie or Kasumi being much easier.

 

[MaxiKilla]

Um, so there's a good amount wrong here. Let me clear some things up:

Having throws between i7 and i12 is pretty standard. Grapplers like Bass and Bayman have throws as fast as i4 and there are only a few throws that are above i12 (Kasumi 33T, Alpha-152's B.U.R.S.T. and the jumping throws are the only ones I can think of). Pretty much the entire cast has an i7 neutral throw with their strongest and slowest throw being i12.

With the teleport, it's not like he can just do it in place. He can only teleport out of certain strings and doesn't get any guaranteed followups out of it or anything. It's a valid mixup. If you want to face stupid teleporting, play vs Hayate in DOA4 or Dimensions.

Hayate is safe, and he's good at spacing and getting in, but he doesn't really stand out in many other areas aside from that. You just have to adapt to the matchup. If you're having issues with Hayate, I can't see Ayane, Christie or Kasumi being much easier.

Ok yes many people have fast throws but Hayate has many throws that's i7 to i10. His teleport would give him a disadvantage if anticipated but because of his teleports he can't be wall pressured. You right about adapt if you're up against offensive type.

 

[Lulu]

Ok yes many people have fast throws but Hayate has many throws that's i7 to i10 and 1 i5 throw. I don't know anyone with a i4 throw unless you meant i5. His teleport would give him a disadvantage if anticipated but because of his teleports he can't be wall pressured. You right about adapt if you're up against offensive type.

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