DOA3++ Balance/Gameplay Mod

[Gultigargar]

If you're figuring out where everything is located and what everything does, writing software to change values would be relatively easy by comparison. We had basic software but not much of the format figured out. We had to figure out what move we were editing by scaling the damage on moves and writing down our findings (i.e. move 1 does 1 point damage, move 2 does 2 points, etc).

Yeah, that's more or less the same approach I use, though instead of changing move damage I've been copying properties from unknown moves onto the basic P/K, 3P/3K and 2P/2K that are always first. The "move X does X damage" approach does seem like the better method, though, especially with DOA3 where I don't have the luxury of modding files on-the-fly while testing them in DOA Online. Sometimes you can also tell what move it is just by looking at its damage and safety on block. Can really save some time if you're just looking for one specific move.

Why not try it out? That's the most fun part of playing around with this stuff to me.

I've already implemented them in my current build, I just like getting other players' point of view to consider before making any final decisions, there might turn out to be ramifications I hadn't thought of.

I am also still kind of interested in making a more experimental build where I just get to play with stuff, like giving Ayane some of her guard breaks from DOA4, even though they are on moves like KKK and 236F+K that you'll never hit with anyway. If I ever get the spare time for writing down all Hayate's animations, I'd also love to try stuff like replacing his 66KK and 66KKK with something like F+K and F+KK to more closely resemble resemble his DOA4 version of the string.

 

[WAZAAAAA]

There's a private sub forum you should have access to now

WHAT IS THIS UNDERGROUND SECTION THAT YOU SPEAK OF

 

[Matt Ponton]

Any way we can get parries to 0(12)18 or even 0(12)23?

 

[Gultigargar]

Any way we can get parries to 0(12)18 or even 0(12)23?

Unlike DOA2U, DOA3 uses the same animation for holds and parries, so they share frame data right now. I'm pretty sure the parry animations still have to be in there somewhere, so I guess it wouldn't be impossible to give them that animation back and changing them to 0(12)18, but finding animations by trial and error takes forever, and I just don't have the time for it anymore.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Its too bad you aren't able to help put together the tool grap3 was working on filling out. Made things so much easier to test and mod

 

[Gultigargar]

So it's been a while, but I finally have time to spare on this again. I've got an update with some minor changes:
- Bass's 9PK launches on counter-hit (similar to Leifang's 6PK).
- Ein's 6P+K is now like the DOA4 version of the move, 33 damage mid attack that stuns.
- Ein's 7P causes guard break.
- Helena's 44P and 44PP stun on normal hit. 44PP damage increased from 15 to 17.

EDIT: Some changes I'm considering but have left out because they felt unnecessary or I didn't know enough about the character to tell if they would be beneficial not:
- Ayane's 236F+K (and all variations) cause guard crush.
- Bass's 66K causes guard break.
- Hayate's 236P changed to 8PP.
- Hayate's P+K causes sitdown stun on normal hit instead of knockdown.
- Hayabusa's 3P+K damage increased from 20 to 22.
- Hayabusa's 66P causes sitdown stun on normal hit instead of knockdown.
- Helena's 46P, 9PP, PPP, etc., cause sitdown on normal hit, instead of knockdown.
- Leifang's 66P, P3PP and PP6PP cause pushback/sitdown stuns on NH/CH, instead of knockdown.
- Feel like I should give more to Zack, Kasumi, Tina and Christie, but I don't know them well enough to tell if they actually need anything.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Some changes I'm considering but have left out because they felt unnecessary or I didn't know enough about the character to tell if they would be beneficial not:
- Ayane's 236F+K (and all variations) cause guard crush.
- Bass's 66K causes guard break.
- Hayate's 236P changed to 8PP.
- Hayate's P+K causes sitdown stun on normal hit instead of knockdown.
- Hayabusa's 3P+K damage increased from 20 to 22.
- Hayabusa's 66P causes sitdown stun on normal hit instead of knockdown.
- Helena's 46P, 9PP, PPP, etc., cause sitdown on normal hit, instead of knockdown.
- Leifang's 66P, P3PP and PP6PP cause pushback/sitdown stuns on NH/CH, instead of knockdown.

All good, have my approval.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Playing around with the latest version. Can we make Bass' 8K perform his 9K? since his 7K already performs 8K as well, and would match with his DOA5 changes lol

 

[Gultigargar]

I'm still in the process learning how to read and modify inputs properly, but if I figure it out I'll definitely do that. I've managed to change Ayane's 4F+K input to 8F+K as a test, and I'm trying to see if I can swap Ein's and , but not much luck with that so far...

 

[Matt Ponton]

Did we change Jann Lee at all? I don't notice him in the change list. I think we should change... something, but he is already good anyways. I'd like to see if we can do anything with his taunt hold for just fun. Like make the hit be a crumple stun instead of knockdown or something?

Another suggestion, lower Gen's 214F+P damage a bit more. His advantage is really good and puts you in a great mix-up close range to just keep looping the throw. I just feel it should be lowered in damage comparable to Hitomi's 6F+P.

 

[Gultigargar]

Yeah, Jann Lee has no changes so far. He's really good, so I don't think he needs buffs, but at the same time I don't feel that he's like Gen Fu, who definitely had some tools that were too strong. His taunt-parry is pretty gimmicky, so I guess it would be fine to have some fun with it. The move has so many recovery frames that I think a stun would hurt him more than help him out, though. I was thinking maybe change the knockback animation to be like his PPPK; I think the spinning knockback might capture the sidestep "feeling" a bit better.

I agree that Gen Fu's frame advantage throw is really strong - easily stronger than Bass and Hitomi's similar throws because of his speed combined with being much closer after the throw - so I put it at 45 damage for now because that's how it is in DOA4 and 5. I wouldn't be against lowering it further to 3x14 or 3x13 damage, I was just trying to put myself in the shoes of a Gen Fu main; it pretty much always feels disappointing when your character gets nerfed whether they deserve it or not.

 

[WAZAAAAA]

Yeah, Jann Lee has no changes so far. He' really good, so I don't think he needs buffs, but at the same time I don't feel that he's like Gen Fu, who definitely had some tools that were too strong. His taunt-parry is pretty gimmicky, so I guess it would be fine to have some fun with it. The move has so many recovery frames that I think a stun would hurt him more than help him out, though. I was thinking maybe change the knockback animation to be like his PPPK; I think the spinning knockback might capture the sidestep "feeling" a bit better.

His Fist of Fury (4T on enemies with their back to a wall) can followup 6P against everyone except Gen Fu

Maybe get rid of his forced taunts and make them all optional/cancellable, these frustrating taunts limit his potential in each single DOA lol

 

[Matt Ponton]

I agree that Gen Fu's frame advantage throw is really strong - easily stronger than Bass and Hitomi's similar throws because of his speed combined with being much closer after the throw - so I put it at 45 damage for now because that's how it is in DOA4 and 5. I wouldn't be against lowering it further to 3x14 or 3x13 damage, I was just trying to put myself in the shoes of a Gen Fu main; it pretty much always feels disappointing when your character gets nerfed whether they deserve it or not.

I say go for 3x13 because I basically agree that Gen Fu's toolset is generally strong. I'd argue he has all attributes of the system in his favor at a given time, with the only non favorable area being a neutral hold damage. His holds don't put him in advantageous positions, with the exception of his parries. Speaking of which, would be able to change the hit levels of his two parries to just be High and Mid instead of High + Mid and Low? His parries guarantee a lift stun and having one parry that covers all high and mid poke attacks is just far too much.

He has more than enough advantages in his other throws (236F+P and 66F+P) to make up for his 214F+P being nerfed. Mind you 66F+P 6F+P can guarantee him a back-turned stun juggle against the wall. His 236F+P can give him a lot of juggle damage (that I think we could stand to nerf one of his moves like we did Bass' 9K) and into an airthrow that guarantees 6P (slip-stuns on water) and high-damage K.

His Fist of Fury (4T on enemies with their back to a wall) can followup 6P against everyone except Gen Fu

Maybe get rid of his forced taunts and make them all optional/cancellable, these frustrating taunts limit his potential in each single DOA lol

Although I like the idea, I don't think that functionality is available to @Gultigargar. However, it does remind me that if we do anything to Jann Lee, we should lower the damage of his 4F+P throw when opponent's back is to the wall as it does far too much on Hi-Counter and DOA3's wall detection system is one of the loosest in the series.

 

[Gultigargar]

The forced taunts are actually pretty easy to get rid of! On each move there is a property for a possible recovery animation to play on hit. Jann Lee uses them for his "taunts," Hayabusa uses it for his 4K, etc. Most attacks have no such recovery animation and just have "FF FF" in that slot, so all you really have to do is set Jann Lee's recovery animation to "FF FF" on those attacks.

I gotta say, though, I actually quite like the little taunts he does, and from what I can tell they're only forced on his 46K-kicks in DOA3, so I think I'd honestly rather leave them like that.

Also, yeah, I forgot about his 4F+P. How about making it 4x12 damage so it's a total of 48, the same as his regular 4F+P? I think that's fair considering he gets a guaranteed follow-up hit for 18 damage that also gives him frame advantage if he completes the string.

Your changes to Gen Fu's parries sound really interesting. I honestly have no idea if it's possible to do, but I'll definitely give it a try. Do you think Kasumi and Leifang should have their parries changed to match that too, then?

I guess nerfing Gen Fu's juggle in the same fashion as we did with Bass is something to consider, but I gotta say that the insane throw damage you can get is one of my favorite things about DOA3.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I guess nerfing Gen Fu's juggle in the same fashion as we did with Bass is something to consider, but I gotta say that the insane throw damage you can get is one of my favorite things about DOA3.

Agreed on the insane throw damage, but I also believe it's too much for some characters. Gen Fu is one of those characters I think that would still be amazing with his throw or juggle stuff minorly taken down. I messed with Bass' changes and he still can get 150 on Light weight characters so it's still devastating but nothing that kills him from doing the 5 frame throw.

Your changes to Gen Fu's parries sound really interesting. I honestly have no idea if it's possible to do, but I'll definitely give it a try. Do you think Kasumi and Leifang should have their parries changed to match that too, then?

While I'm not against changing it for them also, I don't think their benefits of connecting are as devastating as Gen Fu's, primarily due GF's amazing stun/throw mix-up game.

 

[WAZAAAAA]

I gotta say, though, I actually quite like the little taunts he does, and from what I can tell they're only forced on his 46K-kicks in DOA3, so I think I'd honestly rather leave them like that.

There are multiple strings that end up with his 46K, and he taunts after his Dragon Kick too (236K). I've heard of situations where his taunt after the Dragon Kick makes the move UNSAFE ON HIT. Even if he's not actually getting punished, he's still wasting precious frame advantage. And I never said to get rid of the taunts completely, just make them optional like with his other moves

 

[Matt Ponton]

There are multiple strings that end up with his 46K, and he taunts after his Dragon Kick too (236K). I've heard of situations where his taunt after the Dragon Kick makes the move UNSAFE ON HIT. Even if he's not actually getting punished, he's still wasting precious frame advantage. And I never said to get rid of the taunts completely, just make them optional like with his other moves

I don't recall precisely, but I believe the "tech the dragon kick to throw punish him" was introduced in DOA4. Edit: Just checked and yeah you can tech it in DOA3 but really it's a rarely used attack. I wouldn't be against removing the extra animation though.

Also as a buff I think his 236P attacks could be GBs instead.

Otherwise, in DOA3 his 46K is only accessible from 46K, 1KK, PP2KK, and 6K4K.

 

[Gultigargar]

I agree the huge ending lag on a connected Dragon Kick can get annoying, so I tried removing the taunt/making it cancel-able. Turns out that when you do that he has time to follow up with a launcher after knocking the opponent into a wall, and I think that's too strong for an unblockable attack that also has a "close hit" property.

 

[WAZAAAAA]

I agree the huge ending lag on a connected Dragon Kick can get annoying, so I tried removing the taunt/making it cancel-able. Turns out that when you do that he has time to follow up with a launcher after knocking the opponent into a wall, and I think that's too strong for an unblockable attack that also has a "close hit" property.

OH SHIT
As a Jann Lee main, DO WANT

 

[Gultigargar]

I managed to find a bunch of addresses much faster than I had anticipated, so here's an update much earlier than expected.

Jann Lee got some nerfs, but hopefully he's still good. Gen Fu's 1P+K was also changed so that you can no longer juggle with it.

I've been messing with inputs lately, so this update has a few changes concerning inputs. First off, Hayate's cartwheel is still replaced by 88K/22K, but previously I had implemented that by replacing its animation, which was somewhat buggy and often made him whiff. Now I've changed the game to "read" 8P+K and 2P+K as valid inputs for 88K and 22K, meaning its no longer buggy and performs exactly the same as if you were to use 88K/22K.

Something that's also been bugging me is how the game interprets walking forward/ as a input. From what I can tell, Bass, Tina and Zack were the only ones affected by this (seems they fixed it for Christie), so I've changed to be an input for for them.

Also did a few animation changes. Hayabusa has a speed increase on his wall-jump 4P. Brad Wong also got a speed increase on his wall-jump 4P+K as well as on 44P and Lying Stance 4.