DOA5 and Sexualization: Too Much?

Has Team Ninja gone too far with DOA5 in regards to sexualization?

  • Yes, completely. They really need to back off.

    Votes: 59 33.7%
  • Well, borderline. They should be careful.

    Votes: 42 24.0%
  • I dunno. Whatever.

    Votes: 18 10.3%
  • Not really, no. They're good at the rate they're going.

    Votes: 36 20.6%
  • Not far enough, I say! Full speed ahead!!!

    Votes: 20 11.4%

  • Total voters
    175

Aerospark

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
http://kotaku.com/dead-or-alive-is-more-than-breasts-1686627572

This article showed up on Kotaku recently. Seems pretty relevant. Touches ground on a lot of things that people have already said here.

It also has the amazing line, "Tecmo Koei seems content to milk the series' breasts for all they are worth." lol
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Kasumi

Active Member

Jyakotu

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Even I'll admit, my friend says he wants to get into DOA, but he's turned off by the sexualization. Now me, like the author of the Kotaku article, I liked DOA because of the action and it was different from other 3D fighters on the PS1 at the time. I never really noticed the bouncing breasts until probably DOA2, but even then, I didn't really even care too much about that aspect of the game. Team Ninja tries to cater to both competitive and casual crowds, but it can be difficult. Itagaki made it even harder when he created the DOAX series.
 

Xhominid The Demon Within

Well-Known Member
http://kotaku.com/dead-or-alive-is-more-than-breasts-1686627572

This article showed up on Kotaku recently. Seems pretty relevant. Touches ground on a lot of things that people have already said here.

It also has the amazing line, "Tecmo Koei seems content to milk the series' breasts for all they are worth." lol

While I did read the article and skimmed parts of it, I can see why he would hit a conclusion like that but at the same time, I still gotta disagree with the overall method.
Sex does still sell and while WE as of the DOA community can see past that and anyone truly interested would try it despite the sex appeal, those who don't want to play it would simply choose dumb reasons why.

I always wonder why people after playing the alpha demo wanted bigger breasts, they were big enough. The problem is the marketing anyway.

Why tone them down to begin with? To please those who STILL won't play the game?
I doubt if Mortal Kombat toned down it's violence it'll get more people to play it, same with making Soul Calibur more like Time Killers or make Virtua Fighter as accessible as Street Fighter, if anything, it'll get diehards to leave the game in droves.

Hell, I was one of those many people who decried lowering the fanservice simply to appease people who wouldn't even give a shit. And I do the same for Mortal Kombat, Soul Calibur and Virtua Fighter. While the marketing IS the hugest issue, I still can't believe he's somehow more ashamed of DOA than that Agarest War package(hell, I bought Onechanbara and when I returned it for cash and the cashier outright asked me my thoughts, I didn't sugarcoat shit and told them my thoughts dead out.)
 

Woozy

Member

Soaring Zero

Active Member
It made me laugh when he said he was ashamed of DOA but bought that Agarest War package. I bought that Agarest War package too and still have all the stuff even though I returned the game. Hell the mousepad is sitting in plain view in my room. Ashamed? Please.
 

werewolfgold

Well-Known Member
I can do without them.
Well, I'm a nice guy. 2 videos are now links so I could post it, but...

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I fell in love with my favorite fighting game franchise for all the right reasons. It was fast, frantic, flashy and groundbreaking. Now, after nearly 20 years together, it's time for me to face the truth—my favorite fighting game franchise is an exhibitionist, and I'm not okay with it.

In the late '90s I was a fighting game fiend, greedily scooping up every title that featured a pair of characters pummeling each other senseless. And in the mid to late '90s there was no better place for a fighting game fan than the Sega Saturn. It was the platform where 2D fighting matured and 3D console fighting was born. Armed with a four megabyte expansion cartridge that allowed me to play Japanese games, I ordered the first Dead or Alive from Japan and fell in love.

Despite swapping the 3D backgrounds of the arcade version with pre-rendered sprites and lowering the detail on the character models, Dead or Alive for the Saturn was a gorgeous game for its time.

But it wasn't the game's looks that got me hooked. It was the action. Fluid and precise, this was a game about striking hard and fast. It was a game about countering. The counter button allowed players to anticipate their opponents' attacks and turn them around, turning a strike into an opportunity to fight back. The ability to counter in Dead or Alive was revolutionary, transforming normal back-and-forth battles into a ballet of battle.


While it was the sweet flow of Dead or Alive's fights that seduced, others latched on to a more immediate aspect of the game's appeal.

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As the story goes, game designer Itagaki wanted a feature for his fighting game that would draw attention to it during development, so he took a cue from another Japanese fighting game, SNK's 2D brawler Fatal Fury. Applying the famous breast animation of female ninja Mai Shinranui to 3D character models, the signature Dead or Alive bounce was born.

It got attention.


An early promo reel for the Sega Saturn version of the game demonstrates the distracting nature of the "physics" Itagaki added to Dead or Alive. The innovative counter system isn't really touched on. Danger Zones, a concept borrowed from Mortal Kombat's stage-based fatalities that would eventually morph into DOA's multi-tiered fighting arenas—one of my favorite features of the franchise—get a quick blurb. And while the reel never comes right out and shouts "Look at these bouncing breasts," every time one of those fluid combat animations ends in ridiculous jiggle, it pretty much does.

I've never let Dead or Alive's breast physics keep me away from what I feel is an excellent fighting game franchise. I played the original game on the Saturn. When it came out the next year for PlayStation, reinstating the polygon stages of the arcade version, I played that as well. I played Dead or Alive 2 on the Dreamcast, marveling at how far the graphics had come in such a short time. I played solo, unlocking all of the game's characters and costumes—I'm a sucker for costume unlocks, and Dead or Alive has almost always delivered on that front.

That Uncomfortable Feeling
It wasn't until Dead or Alive 3 for the Xbox that I started to feel uncomfortable about my choice of fighting games. A showcase for the power of Microsoft's new system, the 2001 North American release lacked many of the bells and whistles of its predecessors—there was a serious lack of unlockable costumes. But it was a famous advertisement for the game that disappointed me the most.


And suddenly all Dead or Alive fans feel like mouth-breathing perverts. Thanks, commercial.

The day I bought my original Xbox, I stopped at a local diner on the way home for a celebratory burger. As I ate, I cracked open the two games I purchased with the system— Halo (of course) and Dead or Alive 3—to thumb through the manuals. The waitress serving me saw the DOA box, gave me a thumbs up and said, "She kicks high." It was the only time I'd ever felt embarrassed to have purchased a video game, and I bought the collector's edition of Record of Agarest War, complete with sexy pillow case and boob-bearing mouse pad.

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I do not embarrass easily.

From that point forward, Dead or Alive was the game with sexy women and bouncing breasts in the eyes of those unfamiliar with its fighting pedigree.

2003's Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball didn't help the series' image. The first game in franchise history to receive an M for Mature rating from the ESRB, Xtreme Beach Volleyball ultimately came off as "You want tits and ass? We'll damn well give you tits and ass." To outsiders looking in, it was further proof of the imagined depravity of Dead or Alive's fanbase.

Fans Demand Bigger Breasts
Series creator Tomonobu Itagaki's departure from Tecmo in 2008 was a ray of hope for Dead or Alive fans tired of the series' over-sexualized image. He was the father of the DOA bounce, often referring to the female characters of the series as his daughters.

An Itagaki-less Team Ninja began working on Dead or Alive 5, a rebirth of sorts for the long-running series. The game would expand on some of the series' more exciting aspects, notably the dynamic stages, while toning down the sex considerably. I'd never been more excited by the phrase "toning down the sex."

The collector's edition of 2012's Ninja Gaiden 3 came bundled with an early demo for Dead or Alive 5, and I was overjoyed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkmOAO8VLdI

While the physics were still in place, the assets those physics had to work with were substantially reduced. Purple-haired ninja Ayane received a substantial breast reduction, looking more like a young girl who'd studied martial arts all of her life and less like a young woman who only studied martial arts when she wasn't recovering from cosmetic surgery.

I loved it. Others weren't quite so keen.

Speaking to Gamasutra in 2012, Dead or Alive 5 director Yohei Shimbori described the fan backlash from Ayane's breast reduction.

"We actually got a lot of feedback from people who were playing it, saying 'We want bigger breasts. Make the characters more like that.' That was kind of surprising."

What might have been a turning point in the series became a tentative sidestep in a better direction. Breast sizes were increased for several characters, but a combination of more realistic body proportions and a less wild bounce offered a small illusion of propriety—an illusion that's immediately shattered the moment you open up the downloadable content page for Dead or Alive 5: Last Round.

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Ultimate Sexy is probably a bit too sexy for you.

They've got every kink covered here, from bunny ears to handcuffs. One moment Shimbori is talking about pressure from overseas offices to de-sexualize the series, the next we've got a veritable fetish smorgasbord available for purchase on Xbox Live and the PlayStation Network.

It's like Team Ninja missed the sexy highway off-ramp, then said "fuck it" and pressed the accelerator to the floor.

It's Just Dead Or Alive's Thing
If I were to ask a stranger at a gaming convention to name a fighting game featuring sexy female characters wearing skimpy outfits, Dead or Alive would likely be the most common answer. The best answer however, is most fighting games. From the moment Super Street Fighter 2 introduced the unitard-wearing Cammy back in 1993 (sorry, Chun-Li), attractive women wearing less than they would wear to the mall have been a staple of the fighting game scene.

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Mortal Kombat's Mileena charmed gamers with her killer smile.

Dead or Alive introduced fighting game fans (some more than others) to bouncing 3D breasts, but other popular 3D fighting franchises followed suit. Physics, when done well, can add an additional layer of realism to a game. When done poorly, at least players have something to giggle at, as seen in this classic Games Radar breast physics comparison from Soulcalibur IV.


Want sexy costumes? It doesn't get any sexier than Anna's calamari gear from Tekken Tag Tournament 2.

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And now I'm hungry.

Fighting game characters are generally attractive. In a genre that showcases physical prowess, it makes sense that physical image plays an important role. With dialogue largely consisting of grunts and shouts and stories that are often little more than flimsy excuses for the setting of a battle, appearance and fighting style are a character's defining characteristics.

It's Okay To Stare
If almost every fighting game franchise does sexy and bouncy, why is Dead or Alive singled out? For one, no one does sexy quite like Team Ninja.

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Hi.

There's something hypnotic about the level of beauty the Dead or Alive series has achieved. Each new installment is prettier than the last, honing its signature style to ridiculous levels of attractiveness.

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Ein is so dreamy.

But really it was that early bounce that cemented Dead or Alive's position in the fighting game hierarchy as "the boob game." As Itagaki hoped, the jiggle indeed drew attention to a new entry in the growing 3D fighting game market. It was just too strong a hook. Instead of moving past the superficial to appreciate the real meat of the game, the gaming community, media outlets (present company not-excluded) and Tecmo Koei's marketing team latched onto those breasts and haven't let go since.

Covering a fighting game for a media outlet can be a complicated affair, especially when attempting to go beyond face value, exploring issues of balance and timing and the competitive scene. The Dead or Alive franchise makes it easy. "What are DOA's boobs doing this time around?" I mean hell, even I'm doing it. Hi there.

Tecmo Koei seems content to milk the series' breasts for all they are worth. The PlayStation 4 and Xbox One versions of the recently-released Dead or Alive 5: Final Round feature the new "Soft Engine," designed specifically to make skin look silkier and move more realistically than ever before. This is how that's being demonstrated.


Now I've got a fighting game with not two but four different options for breast motion—Off, Natural, DOA and Last Round. That's a ridiculous amount of focus on a cosmetic physics option that makes no difference whatsoever to core gameplay.

What bothers me the most is that all of this is an attempt to keep the focus solely on Dead or Alive's more private parts. Breast physics in fighting games is a regular thing now. Just look at this clip from the PlayStation 4 version of Last Round with them turned off. It's like two plastic dolls fighting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPY8FjqrD1k

The effort Team Ninja and Tecmo Koei are making to draw attention to the sexual aspects of Dead or Alive is becoming pathetic. Instead of letting it age gracefully into the mature fighting game franchise I know it to be, they're putting on a heavy layer of makeup and performing extreme plastic surgery, attempting to hold onto the titillating excitement of its early days.

The Defense Falters
As I discussed with our team how to cover Dead or Alive 5: Final Round, I tried to argue that breast physics were the least interesting part of the series. The Dead or Alive I fell in love with is a fighting game focused on fast action, easy enough for a new player to hop in and simultaneously becomes simply brilliant in the hands of a seasoned pro. It's about dynamic face-offs and spectacular battles spilling across multi-tiered stages.

The team responded with skepticism. If the sexy side of Dead or Alive was its least interesting aspect, then why the "Soft Engine?" Why all the marketing materials that are little more than 20 seconds of swaying boobs?

And just like that, I deflated. There's no use arguing the character of a game when it's standing behind you the entire time with its shirt raised shouting "Look at my tits!"

It Doesn't Have To Be This Way
Dead or Alive has much more to offer than heaving bosoms and bare skin. I know this. The hardcore fans that aren't engaged in a letter writing campaign for tits the size of Volkswagens know this. The folks who don't know this are the ones whose only exposure to the series is an endless parade of borderline softcore porn masquerading as marketing. In order for anything to change, Tecmo Koei and Team Ninja have to be willing to change, complainers be damned. Here are a few pointers to help get them started.

Show, don't tell.

I have nothing against bouncing boobs. Having observed my wife for many years, I've come to realize that it is a thing that happens. Depending on the size it can be a painful, torturous thing that happens, but I'm of the opinion that it's probably better they do than sit there stoically like a statue.

Almost every popular 3D fighting game out there has some degree of bounce. It's really nothing extreme anymore. At this point hyping it is like telling everyone your fighters' kick each other. Of course they do.

What I am saying is there is no need to change the way things move in Dead or Alive. There's also no reason to hype the way things move in Dead or Alive. So stop making such a big deal out of it. If fans want it, it'll be in there.

Take body physics to the next level.

I get it, Team Ninja—you're obsessed with how the body moves. You want things to react naturally to motion. You know what would be amazing? If the entire body reacted to motion. And touching. And hitting.

You want me to get excited about bodies in a fighting game? Have a punch connect. Fist into face, skin shifting under the pressure of the knuckles, gone white from tension. How about grabs that affect the fighters' clothing? If you're really hell-bent on sexy, how about clothing that rips realistically in the heat of battle?

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More realistic than this, please.

It'll be a whole lot of work, and maybe even today's more advanced consoles aren't up to the task, but if any development team can pull it off it's the one with enough time to create an entirely new engine just to show off breasts.

Grow a pair.

Allow me to re-paste the game director Yohei Shimbori's quote from earlier.

"We actually got a lot of feedback from people who were playing it, saying 'We want bigger breasts. Make the characters more like that.' That was kind of surprising."

Fuck those people. I bet there were at least five people quietly enjoying the changes made for every one who sent in an angry email demanding breasts be embiggened. What was "kind of surprising" to me was that the team actually took those whiners to heart and changed direction in mid-development. If I were a skeptic I'd say the whole thing was a flimsy excuse to mention breasts in an interview context, but I am I am eternal optimist, so I'll just pretend it was all for the best.

If those folks want to see anime-style breasts bouncing that badly, I can direct them to several games available for purchase at Manga Gamer dedicated to just that.

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This shot is from a game called Ultimate Boob Wars. Sounds right up their alley.

I know getting negative feedback is upsetting, as is the thought of not catering to your most vocal fans, but trust me—they'll get over it, much easier than I'll get over being considered a lech for enjoying your fighting game franchise. I'd rather be considered a lech for the truly lecherous things I do.

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I own this perverted Transformers figurine.

And finally...

Never do this again.

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Not even in German.

Bouncing Back
Dead or Alive needs to work on its personality. It's got looks nailed down—I doubt we'll ever see a physically ugly entry in the series. But for years the franchise has flaunted its sexuality, to the point where no one unfamiliar with its more intriguing aspects can see anything but flashes of skin. It got their attention, but never took that opportunity to show them what else it could do

The building blocks are all in place—a fast-paced brawling engine that's newbie-friendly and pro-flexible, solid mechanics, a cast of colorful characters and a rich story mode that's far more meaty than any fighting game's needs to be. Now it's up to Tecmo Koei and Team Ninja to build those blocks up so high that no pair of bouncing breasts can possibly knock them down.

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Argentus

Well-Known Member
I just wanted to say, they can't actually show hits rippling the flesh. Because the system uses hit boxes, not actual collision. Or the 3d equivalent. Point is the hits don't actually connect directly. They wiff or clip.
 

werewolfgold

Well-Known Member
I just wanted to say, they can't actually show hits rippling the flesh. Because the system uses hit boxes, not actual collision. Or the 3d equivalent. Point is the hits don't actually connect directly. They wiff or clip.
A simulation could probably be calculated based on the type of hit. It would probably suck to do so, and it would look wonky as all hell, but...
 

Woozy

Member
"As I discussed with our team how to cover Dead or Alive 5: Final Round, I tried to argue that breast physics were the least interesting part of the series. The Dead or Alive I fell in love with is a fighting game focused on fast action, easy enough for a new player to hop in and simultaneously becomes simply brilliant in the hands of a seasoned pro. It's about dynamic face-offs and spectacular battles spilling across multi-tiered stages."

"The team responded with skepticism. If the sexy side of Dead or Alive was its least interesting aspect, then why the "Soft Engine?" Why all the marketing materials that are little more than 20 seconds of swaying boobs?"

And just like that, I deflated. There's no use arguing the character of a game when it's standing behind you the entire time with its shirt raised shouting "Look at my tits!"

This is my biggest frustration. I can't tell people who don't even care about the game to fuck off, because Hayashi is pandering almost exclusively to them. Sure, there's Cyber Raidou, but there's also an option for panties in the customization menu, new titty physics, and fucking Honoka. I wonder if people who wanted Ayane to be bustier even saw this coming. That train of "toning down the sexuality" got derailed so hard it collided with another train some 10 miles away.
 

Xhominid The Demon Within

Well-Known Member
This is my biggest frustration. I can't tell people who don't even care about the game to fuck off, because Hayashi is pandering almost exclusively to them. Sure, there's Cyber Raidou, but there's also an option for panties in the customization menu, new titty physics, and fucking Honoka. I wonder if people who wanted Ayane to be bustier even saw this coming. That train of "toning down the sexuality" got derailed so hard it collided with another train some 10 miles away.

You had me then you lost me...

Question: Why should the people who support the costumes go fuck off? They are loyal consumers like anyone else, do pro Street Fighter players tell those who buy DLC to go fuck off? Those who play Soul Calibur for Dress up be told to fuck off? Or simply buying and playing the Final Fantasy game you hate?

Last time I checked, those people helped Team Ninja alot and keep the game afloat. Telling them to fuck off is the equivalent of letting the game die. How about instead of telling to go fuck off, go tell Team Ninja to make more wholesome packs? Help fund the game and make it more wholesome for everyone.
 

Aven Kujo-Gin

Well-Known Member
I wonder if people who wanted Ayane to be bustier even saw this coming. That train of "toning down the sexuality" got derailed so hard it collided with another train some 10 miles away.
To be honest, I was one of those people who get dissapointed with the breast reduction for Ayane. But I will never NEVER would wanted things to end up this way.
The problem is not the over sexualization, I'm okay with girls being hot, with big boobs and etc. That has been always there, as well as sexy costumes. The real problem is they way they promote it, like the only thing that matters is watch the girls in the most dirty way possible.
Oh, and also, all the money they spend in the sexuality, would have been used for other important aspects that they are just ignoring.
 
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Woozy

Member
You had me then you lost me...

Question: Why should the people who support the costumes go fuck off? They are loyal consumers like anyone else, do pro Street Fighter players tell those who buy DLC to go fuck off? Those who play Soul Calibur for Dress up be told to fuck off? Or simply buying and playing the Final Fantasy game you hate?

Last time I checked, those people helped Team Ninja alot and keep the game afloat. Telling them to fuck off is the equivalent of letting the game die. How about instead of telling to go fuck off, go tell Team Ninja to make more wholesome packs? Help fund the game and make it more wholesome for everyone.

Why do you assume "the people who don't actually care about the game" automatically means "the people who buy the costumes"? So long as you actually play the game for the sake of playing it, and not solely for the sake of masturbation, I don't care what costumes you buy. I may not like them, but I won't piss and moan at you about it. I want to be able to tell the people who don't care about the quality of the games to fuck off, that this game isn't for them. Also, I plan on being more on top of Team Ninja with quality of these costumes, I just need to figure out what the best way to go about it would be.

It's a matter of image. The way I see it more people who view the game as "that titty simulator", the less the community thrives. There'll be more people who know the intricacies of the boob physics than the game's mechanics, and then the hardcore community will stagnate. Sure, there'd be some new blood in this hypothetical scenario, but there could be a lot more, especially with the franchise expanding to the PC. I'm not saying they need to stop making fanservice-y costumes altogether (though I'd like that a lot), I'm saying there needs to be a balance between the two, and that the fanservice should match the character's general perception. For example, Mila.

RIGHT:​
Mila(2).jpg

WRONG:​

1412711221091.jpg

WAAAAAAAAAAAAY WRONG, LIKE, NOT EVEN CLOSE:​
maxresdefault.jpg

Then again, I'm not the go-to guy for the status of the community, I only went to /v/ for news and shit for awhile, and being exposed to that for a long period of time will make a pessimist out of anyone. I didn't even know there were big tournaments for DoA until recently. That being said, I can't wait until the PC version comes out so I can start posting combos and shit there. Don't get me wrong, I like the community, but there are those little bits that I just can't stand, and those are the ones I have the most experience with.
 
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Xhominid The Demon Within

Well-Known Member
Why do you assume "the people who don't actually care about the game" automatically means "the people who buy the costumes"?
I can't tell people who don't even care about the game to fuck off, because Hayashi is pandering almost exclusively to them.

So long as you actually play the game for the sake of playing it, and not solely for the sake of masturbation, I don't care what costumes you buy. I may not like them, but I won't piss and moan at you about it.
1. Who buys games for masturbation ever? Saying or no, someone doing something specifically for that must have never heard of the internet period.

2. Except considering the mindset of some people, anyone who doesn't completely rep DOA might as well be a basement dweller. The issue is that what makes a fan a fan? That they buy the game? That they go to tournaments? Is there suddenly a criteria now?

I want to be able to tell the people who don't care about the quality of the games to fuck off, that this game isn't for them. Also, I plan on being more on top of Team Ninja with quality of these costumes, I just need to figure out what the best way to go about it would be.
Some people do care about the quality of the game, they just believe at the moment, it's good enough. It's not that they don't care, it's the fact that there is too many chances the wrong people will voice something that will utterly change everything like with Injustice's patching that basically killed the game for plenty of people.

It's a matter of image. The way I see it more people who view the game as "that titty simulator", the less the community thrives. There'll be more people who know the intricacies of the boob physics than the game's mechanics, and then the hardcore community will stagnate. Sure, there'd be some new blood in this hypothetical scenario, but there could be a lot more, especially with the franchise expanding to the PC.
Again, that would make sense...if it was true. There are far less people who see this game as a "Titty Simulator" than when DOAXBV and Xtreme 2 popped up. While the marketing sucks ass still, the streams that feature the game had more people actually state whether they didn't like the game on a mechanical level, inspired them to actually play it or they dropped it but it re-invigorated them to play it again.
And you do realize TN can't do ANYTHING about the PC release right? There is already nude mods for this game on the freaking X360 and there is plenty of other games that people made nude mods on and other fanservice outfits and they even shot themselves in the foot trying to address it so why is that paramount?

I'm not saying they need to stop making fanservice-y costumes altogether (though I'd like that a lot), I'm saying there needs to be a balance between the two, and that the fanservice should match the character's general perception. For example, Mila.

RIGHT:​

WRONG:​


WAAAAAAAAAAAAY WRONG, LIKE, NOT EVEN CLOSE:​

Then again, I'm not the go-to guy for the status of the community, I only went to /v/ for news and shit for awhile, and being exposed to that for a long period of time will make a pessimist out of anyone. I didn't even know there were big tournaments for DoA until recently. That being said, I can't wait until the PC version comes out so I can start posting combos and shit there. Don't get me wrong, I like the community, but there are those little bits that I just can't stand, and those are the ones I have the most experience with.

Well then maybe you should leave places like that. While it is obvious there needs to be a balance, telling those who are buying them to fuck off is the dumbest way to get that point across. Go tell TN to add in more tasteful outfits...and then BUY THEM! There's a reason that the Casual Selection stopped and that was because Tecmo Koei didn't see it as worth it compared to how much the other outfits cost. This is a business, you need to actually make the demand KNOWN otherwise we will still be stuck with the DLC outfits of skimpiness.

There's a reason why the Police outfits and Christmas costumes of this year had 2 male outfits and that was because of the outcry to HAVE males get costumes. They are testing the waters which is why I said to buy them, not just talk about it. Send the message because once you do, they'll see it as worth it and make more and it's the same here.

This is not the matter of excluding people, it's a matter of doing the right amount of work and making sure it sticks.
 
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