News Emperor Cow Meets Tomonobu Itagaki!

[Kohlrak]

It can be overwhelming if the newcomer worries on how many movelist there is (it isn't as much compare to Tekken), knowing which move to counter, & some characters are either ones you don't find yourself doing pretty well (maybe something like Bass, Gen Fu, Bayman to name a few) or inputs that are not easy to pull off (example the Izuna Drop). Even if DOA can overwhelm players at first, there are always characters that are much more easy to use or pick up play without training yourself.

TBH, I find knowing how to use the defensive moves (other than block) to be a good bit of the problem. You don't NEED to know the whole moveset of a character to do well, as long as you know how not to get beat by the other character. Knowing how to punish someone after blocking them, knowing how to sidestep, and, the worst but most effective, knowing when to hold and which hold to use. To do these options, you need to know the whole cast almost as if you main them. Oh, and don't get me started on stagger escape.

Honestly, Street Fighter will always be in every tournaments (with few exceptions or until olds get replaced eventually) even the lineup will always show SF as number one along with Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 taking number two and any SSB title will get the number 3 spot (there might even be more than one game, even one that was not officially made by Nintendo Project M, despite it is a modified version of Brawl to play like Melee) although despite SSB Wii U is at number 3 in EVO15, SSBM that was originally number 3 from previous years ended up on number 8.

And this is no surprise.

But anyway SSB for certain is indeed easier to play (if you were to ignore part of Melee's tech, speed, & combos) & learn character moves or how to play the game, which pretty much any players (unless they don't care about SSB) will likely pick up a copy of SSB whether they'll play it just for fun or for competitive play.

And immediately you see the pattern. It's easiest to play, but is balanced so that there's actually a game there. Thus, you an expect it to be the most played.

Street Fighter is a little easy (with some exceptions to many mechanics or how it is use), but it would still require to understand on how the special moves or supers work if that newcomer has never played SF or other 2D fighters, even if they did played 2D fighters they've never been able to do d,df,f input for example (which 3D fighters have inputs like that too). Some moves, newcomers will not easily execute or be able to pull off during matches (like 360-degree type inputs from either Zangief, Honda, or T. Hawk to name a few, or Delta motion for supers from Guile, Vega/Balrog (Claws), or Decapre) which part of these inputs time & bit of practice. SF can only be easy if newcomers can do inputs that doesn't require too much to learn like Ryu, Guile (except Supers), or Chun-Li for example.

And we see it again. And it gets more fun, when you see which characters are used the most. The Ryu like characters (Ryu, Ken, Sakura) get played alot. Next tier you get the Guile type characters (Guile, Boxer, Honda), then you get the really obscure characters, then last you end up with Gen.

Part of getting into fighters will still apply to the newcomer or players themselves what they prefer for games or how much they understand games (even if they don't have much skill). People could still want to play games that despite it isn't easy, would want to beat it or learn them (maybe similar on how I got into fighters). Part of 3D fighters is that they've expand more when it comes to mechanics or combos for example, even if it meant that these added mechanics or heavy combos just divide opinions on what they prefer. Even SC series started to become much more simple, even Tekken 7 may try to appeal beginners which some people will not be a fan of. The choices to offer is very limited since there are 4 main title to choose (not counting other third party media games), there are other 3D fighters that didn't see more titles or certain series stop at recent tile that did no justice to the original.

Personally, i think the secret isn't simplifying the game itself, so much as getting the game to a winnable level from which you can expand on, to get people to play it well. When you first start playing smash bros, you don't immediately learn how to shield or even roll dodge. These are things you learn after you master the rest of the tech in the game, despite it being really simple. You don't need those to win, but it helps alot. The idea is, you gotta have fun before you're going to invest deeper into the game, so you gotta try to get people to that fun stage as quickly as possible for the game to succeed. Hopefully, you can get them there without them learning that mashing is how you win.

 

[d3v]

Okay I'm gonna say an unpopular opinion here.

High level play is irrelevant from a game design standpoint. For the sole reason that high level play is created from existing game design elements, exploiting and manipulating various mechanics and the like to effectively create min/max strategies. High level play will come into its own, regardless of the designers intentions, so there's virtually no point in even taking it into consideration, ESPECIALLY, when he intentionally created the game as primarily casual fighters. Its different in cases like, well, most 2d fighters, where they just say "fuck game design" and instead focus ENTIRELY on high level play. But DOA isn't like that.

Its like Smash. Its still a casual party game, first and foremost. But people have found ways to treat it like a "serious" fighter by editing out certain parts, exploiting other flaws in the mechanics, etc. And I think THAT'S what Itagaki intended, even if people generally don't agree that he achieved it. He wanted a game that was a fun GAME, while at the same time, able to ALSO be played at a high level, not just one or the other.

I will say though, that one of Itagaki's flaws was that he either didn't understand, or refused to accept, that players generally wind up finding ways to play games that are different from what the creator intended.

Except it totally is relevant since knowing what the players do, what they abuse and what factors/mechanics keep the game from being totally busted helps in making the game better. This makes it so that the game has less chances of totally collapsing as it gets played at higher levels (and therefore gives the game depth and longevity) - something that totally happened to DOA4.

 

[Kohlrak]

Except it totally is relevant since knowing what the players do, what they abuse and what factors/mechanics keep the game from being totally busted helps in making the game better. This makes it so that the game has less chances of totally collapsing as it gets played at higher levels (and therefore gives the game depth and longevity) - something that totally happened to DOA4.

He's speaking more overall, but you're right. The idea, however, is that these added mechanics are to balance the game. If the game is balanced another way, the mechanics become a novelty (though novelty is especially good for high level play). If you're designing a game, you're trying to sell it. And who buys a game more, casuals or competitive players? So, therefore, naturally, wouldn't catering to a competitive community be an afterthought, rather than core design (not saying that DoA successfully accomplished appealing to the target crowd, but that's a good thing, anyway)? You gotta remember, these guys are in it to make money, not make people happy. Making people happy, fortunately, helps make money, so it's almost always part of the deal.

 

[deathofaninja]

Every time Itagaki says "They are my daughters; my children"

 

[d3v]

He's speaking more overall, but you're right. The idea, however, is that these added mechanics are to balance the game. If the game is balanced another way, the mechanics become a novelty (though novelty is especially good for high level play). If you're designing a game, you're trying to sell it. And who buys a game more, casuals or competitive players? So, therefore, naturally, wouldn't catering to a competitive community be an afterthought, rather than core design (not saying that DoA successfully accomplished appealing to the target crowd, but that's a good thing, anyway)? You gotta remember, these guys are in it to make money, not make people happy. Making people happy, fortunately, helps make money, so it's almost always part of the deal.

You have to consider though that with the move towards Esports (and with TN sponsoring things such as last years Road to the Fall Classic, they do want to move this into Esports territory), high level play is becoming very important.

Not that it wasn't important to begin with, what with the game's arcade roots. Good mechanics means that a game lasts longer in the arcade. The longer it lasts in the arcade, the more money it makes since, based on the current Japanese arcade model, KOEI Tecmo takes a cut off every credit the players insert into the game.

 

[Argentus]

You have to consider though that with the move towards Esports (and with TN sponsoring things such as last years Road to the Fall Classic, they do want to move this into Esports territory), high level play is becoming very important.

Not that it wasn't important to begin with, what with the game's arcade roots. Good mechanics means that a game lasts longer in the arcade. The longer it lasts in the arcade, the more money it makes since, based on the current Japanese arcade model, KOEI Tecmo takes a cut off every credit the players insert into the game.

But high level play is separate from the base good mechanics, is what I was saying. High level play comes from dissecting and exploiting the mechanics in ways the devs honestly can't, for the most part, have possibly foreseen when designing the game.

Then the following games and players take those tactics into account, etc. But my point was that its almost a lost cause to try to predict how high level play will turn out.

Most devs try to cater to it, resulting in things like Crossups in Street Fighter, which is essentially and originally just abusing shoddy hitboxes, now being a core tactic of the series. Then other stuff like wavedashing, cancels (I really doubt that originated as an intentional design point, more likely people figured out how to overlap sprite animations then it became a "thing" In later installments), etc, etc. Others try to patch those tactics out (infinites being removed, nerfs and buffs, etc)

Itagaki, on the other hand, was trying to stick to his guns with his original intentions, and I respect the hell out of him for trying, at least. He may not be of a "Competitive tournament player" mindset, but he is still an excellent GAME DESIGNER, and I find it hard to argue that.



Also, its very important to keep in mind, when comparing 4 and 5, that DOA4 is ten years old now.

 

[d3v]

But high level play is separate from the base good mechanics, is what I was saying. High level play comes from dissecting and exploiting the mechanics in ways the devs honestly can't, for the most part, have possibly foreseen when designing the game.

Then the following games and players take those tactics into account, etc. But my point was that its almost a lost cause to try to predict how high level play will turn out.

Most devs try to cater to it, resulting in things like Crossups in Street Fighter, which is essentially and originally just abusing shoddy hitboxes, now being a core tactic of the series. Then other stuff like wavedashing, cancels (I really doubt that originated as an intentional design point, more likely people figured out how to overlap sprite animations then it became a "thing" In later installments), etc, etc. Others try to patch those tactics out (infinites being removed, nerfs and buffs, etc)

Itagaki, on the other hand, was trying to stick to his guns with his original intentions, and I respect the hell out of him for trying, at least. He may not be of a "Competitive tournament player" mindset, but he is still an excellent GAME DESIGNER, and I find it hard to argue that.

The point is that you can review the mechanics of previous games and see why things get used and abused, yet at the same time, you can also see which mechanics control those things.

Just watch this video where Mike Z discusses how certain mechanics kept Marvel vs. Capcom 2 from totally being busted.

These same mechanics, as well as the principles behind them, he applied into the games he did design (Skullgirls, Killer Instinct).

 

[Kohlrak]

You have to consider though that with the move towards Esports (and with TN sponsoring things such as last years Road to the Fall Classic, they do want to move this into Esports territory), high level play is becoming very important.

No it's not. It's becoming a thing, butt it's not becoming important. It's gaining respect slowly, just like the LGBT movement. Unfortunately for us, they started first, so they have more respect. Support from a teddy bear company for gay teddybears doesn't mean that the world is accepting gays more. It just means that company sees the gay population as more profit than the lack of a rainbow colored teddybear (i need to stop making replies before i've had my coffee).

Not that it wasn't important to begin with, what with the game's arcade roots. Good mechanics means that a game lasts longer in the arcade. The longer it lasts in the arcade, the more money it makes since, based on the current Japanese arcade model, KOEI Tecmo takes a cut off every credit the players insert into the game.

Right, but complex and good are not the same things. The competitive scene prefers complex, otherwise people just wait for the timer to hit zero since they can't get an advantage with chasing. You gotta ask, though, how much money TK is actually pulling out of these machines. And dare i bring it up, but how did those machines handle the the fetish DLC? Or was that just something for the westernized (i say that for some japanese have consoles while it's getting increasingly less popular) audience?

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Right, but complex and good are not the same things. The competitive scene prefers complex, otherwise people just wait for the timer to hit zero since they can't get an advantage with chasing. You gotta ask, though, how much money TK is actually pulling out of these machines. And dare i bring it up, but how did those machines handle the the fetish DLC? Or was that just something for the westernized (i say that for some japanese have consoles while it's getting increasingly less popular) audience?

For the record there are hardly any fetish outfits in the arcade.. theyre very selective in which costumes to put on there.. in fact DOA5UA is far more tasteful.

 

[Kohlrak]

For the record there are hardly any fetish outfits in the arcade.. theyre very selective in which costumes to put on there.. in fact DOA5UA is far more tasteful.

That was my suspicion. With the exception of AKB48 and certain anime, every time someone talks to me about japan and sexualization (panty vending machines, tentacle porn, etc), i usually just end up saying that, despite there surely being perverts in japan, it seems to me that alot of this over-the-top sexualization appeals to dumb westerners who they know are making fun of it and thus buying (plus, there's alot more westerners than japanese, so you know you can get more money from them, since you really don't need to worry about paying for a translation since there are all those free translation weaboo communities out there). Logically, though, you want anything that would draw appeal to your machine, but it would seem they're afraid of people being ashamed and walking away from the machine. This means that TN does know what it's doing.

 

[Kronin]

I think there is no reason to check the arcade version or Japanese sales for it: maybe in the East the request for male outfits or not sexy ones is lesser, but without doubt the sexy ones for the females sell well in the West. Otherwise be sure that KT would have changed the DLC policy.

Apparently something of this kind is happening (see for example the Showstoppers Encore pack as exclusive for the West compared to the extra 4 swimsuits for the females in Japan), but it's still nothing of really considerable.

Finally, I'm not so sure that TN like to put so much fanservice in the game, and this indipendently from the appealing or less the audience. I don't think that it's a case that they discarded many sexy outfits ranked in the top 10 of the Halloween contest design, in favor of more proper costumes and in theme.

 

[d3v]

No it's not. It's becoming a thing, butt it's not becoming important. It's gaining respect slowly, just like the LGBT movement. Unfortunately for us, they started first, so they have more respect. Support from a teddy bear company for gay teddybears doesn't mean that the world is accepting gays more. It just means that company sees the gay population as more profit than the lack of a rainbow colored teddybear (i need to stop making replies before i've had my coffee).

I fail to see how Esports (and therefore high level play) isn't important, not with the amount of money that I know is being poured into it as well as the amount of money being made.

 

[David Gregg]

This means that TN does know what it's doing.

I can't speak from personal experience since I've never played 5UA (let alone travel to Japan) but the arcade does seem to have a decent amount of fetish outfits:
http://www.gamecity.ne.jp/doa5/ultimate/arcade/home.html#gallery

I think that the swimsuits and fetish outfits can hurt the game and turn away newcomers. Before you start saying "F*** the haters it's a great fighter" and "We don't want those kind of players anyway" just hear me out.

Outfits play little/no role in other fighters from an offline perspective. You have C1, C2, and...that's usually it. Even with TTT2's wacky customization options at EVO last year the fighters were usually wearing default outfits (and if they had custom outfits they were generally bland). It's great that DOA has so many outfits which are often varied and designed well but they don't all need to be available imo for offline play and when it becomes the primary attraction of a fight (rather than the players' skill) I think it's a problem. I can't show off this game to friends with how awesome Helena player X is when all they keep saying is "How can she move with that swimsuit riding up her @ss like that? O_O". Another example is ShackNews which thankfully @Mr. Wah came in and saved the day to portray the game in a more positive light (as opposed to spending most of the time putting the girls in string bikinis and utilizing the six axis function).

So why not have both worlds where there's still the casual aspect with the outfits but then sticking to more conservative outfits (referring mainly to the girls) when showing off the actual fighting?

 

[tokiopewpew]

It's great that DOA has so many outfits which are often varied and designed well but they don't all need to be available imo for offline play and when it becomes the primary attraction of a fight (rather than the players' skill) I think it's a problem. I can't show off this game to friends with how awesome Helena player X is when all they keep saying is "How can she move with that swimsuit riding up her @ss like that? O_O".

If your friends are rather interested in looking at the girls, their clothing and or the behavior of their sexual characteristics instead of trying to understand the game mechanics, I'd almost claim that you could show them any 3D fighter and they would still act the same as soon as they see a female fighter.

Sure, with adding features like the OMG mode, TN sometimes likes to overdo things a bit, however, it wouldn't be such a big deal if people wouldn't always make themselves look like that they would have big need of these. There is not TN to blame if the six axis controller function is mainly used to focus on a girls chest or her butt after a match. It's the people themselves. Or did you see Sorwah checking all available Bikini's in the character selection first before entering the training mode on stream?

 

[Kasumi-Phase-X]

TBH, I find knowing how to use the defensive moves (other than block) to be a good bit of the problem. You don't NEED to know the whole moveset of a character to do well, as long as you know how not to get beat by the other character. Knowing how to punish someone after blocking them, knowing how to sidestep, and, the worst but most effective, knowing when to hold and which hold to use. To do these options, you need to know the whole cast almost as if you main them. Oh, and don't get me started on stagger escape. And this is no surprise.
And immediately you see the pattern. It's easiest to play, but is balanced so that there's actually a game there. Thus, you an expect it to be the most played.
And we see it again. And it gets more fun, when you see which characters are used the most. The Ryu like characters (Ryu, Ken, Sakura) get played alot. Next tier you get the Guile type characters (Guile, Boxer, Honda), then you get the really obscure characters, then last you end up with Gen.
Personally, i think the secret isn't simplifying the game itself, so much as getting the game to a winnable level from which you can expand on, to get people to play it well. When you first start playing smash bros, you don't immediately learn how to shield or even roll dodge. These are things you learn after you master the rest of the tech in the game, despite it being really simple. You don't need those to win, but it helps alot. The idea is, you gotta have fun before you're going to invest deeper into the game, so you gotta try to get people to that fun stage as quickly as possible for the game to succeed. Hopefully, you can get them there without them learning that mashing is how you win.

Learning different defensive moves can be a bit difficult (that doesn't involve blocking, counter, or sidestep) which would require going through tutorials to overcome it or understanding on how it works, even using holds does require to know which attacks to counter which would require experimenting, knowing which ones to avoid, & a lot of game time by challenging Max Difficulty CPU & online matches.
It is true that you don't need to know the whole movelist to do better, I don't know every moves in Tekken but I still do pretty decent along with DOA5. (part of the many movelist is mostly coming from 3D fighters where there are many ways to attack, which you don't have to know everything.) When I was playing Tekken Revolution (plus few matches in TTT2), it took Me a lot to know which attacks to either sidestep, duck, & block especially with players that intend to spam or annoy you with cheap attacks. (especially Kazuya & Law to name a few) It does take experience to be able to fight decent & avoid cheap tactics.

This pattern is pretty common when it comes to getting into videogames or how some became pretty successful (even others try to be like them or try to appeal both but may end up failing), especially from someone who played almost every fighting game, knowing history of different franchises or companies, even details that are mentioned (like Ono, Harada, Hayashi, Itagaki for some examples). Another thing when it comes to characters that are used the most is which a player of any skill level would actually use or understand their characters on what are they pretty good with, especially since there are many characters to explore even have different styles of fighting, ranging from easy to play with to understanding them at a more experienced level.

I agree, simplifying the game isn't the best method or way to get players into the game (which usually leads to divide players or not liking the game all together. there may be few exceptions). Maybe not just having a easier experience within the game, but maybe characters can also play a big role (like I mention about different levels) where you can give them more easier experience but still has amount of skills or tech to master (even have characters that changes the experience). Even tutorials (like what DOA5 & other fighters have) which pretty much tells you everything from basics, advance, characters, & combos can also be very helpful, but it is very optional which players can still have fun even if they didn't go through tutorials they may not need to know everything to stand a chance or how to have fun. Another thing on getting the game to succeed, is how much access you have (since it would require people paying to be able to play a game) like demos or like Core Fighters (which is a free to play experience) along with having the full game (for someone that doesn't mind paying full price, even Arcades from other countries can help too).

 

[Woozy]

"YOU say that because you are a pro hardcore player! But I look at it from a game designer standpoint. It is almost impossible to attract new players with the way the game plays now."

Couldn't disagree more. I started with 5 vanilla a week before Ultimate dropped, and have had no problems learning to play somewhat competently, and I play maybe twice a week for a few hours. Dead or Alive 5 Ultimate is not hard to learn casually at all, with a full tutorial, command traing, and combo challenge to get you started (5 Vanilla is a slightly different story). There'll always be a barrier between casual and competitive play, that's just how competitive games work.

 

[Argentus]

Another example is ShackNews which thankfully @Mr. Wah came in and saved the day to portray the game in a more positive light (as opposed to spending most of the time putting the girls in string bikinis and utilizing the six axis function).

This especially...the girl would spend more time waggling the controller in the win screen than actually playing the damn game.

Also, keep in mind...we are simply USED To things being oversexualized due to being used to anime and videogames. Newcomers however, still can't get over it, and so it helps to use defaults instead of the bikinis. During the 3/2U era, I would constantly have family (Specifically, my bitchy sister) hovering over my shoulder just insulting and talking shit every time because of the bikinis and stuff.

"YOU say that because you are a pro hardcore player! But I look at it from a game designer standpoint. It is almost impossible to attract new players with the way the game plays now."

Couldn't disagree more. I started with 5 vanilla a week before Ultimate dropped, and have had no problems learning to play somewhat competently, and I play maybe twice a week for a few hours. Dead or Alive 5 Ultimate is not hard to learn casually at all, with a full tutorial, command traing, and combo challenge to get you started (5 Vanilla is a slightly different story). There'll always be a barrier between casual and competitive play, that's just how competitive games work.

eehhhhhhmmmm.

I will fully admit I'm a casual player, and I had to give up on the combo challenges and certain command training lists (ryu's alternaute izunas). Flat out can't get the timing down on the overly complex crap.

 

[David Gregg]

If your friends are rather interested in looking at the girls, their clothing and or the behavior of their sexual characteristics instead of trying to understand the game mechanics, I'd almost claim that you could show them any 3D fighter and they would still act the same as soon as they see a female fighter.

Not too many other fighters feature this:

Spoiler

Like Argentus said we're used to the sexy outfits but if you take a step back and look at it from an outsider's perspective it really can be distracting. Don't get me wrong I love DOA and always try my best to portray this game as the fantastic fighter that it is to friends and players from other fighters but the swimsuits/fetish outfits do turn people away.

 

[Kohlrak]

I fail to see how Esports (and therefore high level play) isn't important, not with the amount of money that I know is being poured into it as well as the amount of money being made.

Which is pale in comparison to the culmination of the average customer.

I can't speak from personal experience since I've never played 5UA (let alone travel to Japan) but the arcade does seem to have a decent amount of fetish outfits:
http://www.gamecity.ne.jp/doa5/ultimate/arcade/home.html#gallery

Rabit (which aren't as bad as the fuzzy rabbit outfits), Maid, Halloween, Bathware, Overalls, Gym outfits, nurse outfits (probably the worst), and the idol outfits are listed.

I think that the swimsuits and fetish outfits can hurt the game and turn away newcomers. Before you start saying "F*** the haters it's a great fighter" and "We don't want those kind of players anyway" just hear me out.

I'm with you on that, actually. The last thing this game needs is to start picking and choosing who they want in the community (SF, mortal kombat, etc can't even afford that [Street Fighter 5 announcments include that they're trying to expand their player base, just for some perspective]). Only smash bros has enough people to afford that, and even they're not doing that. I know some people seem to be willing to say "screw the mashers" and "screw the people who play dressup," but we really can't afford to say that, and that mentality is one of the major reasons why we're never taken seriously.

Outfits play little/no role in other fighters from an offline perspective. You have C1, C2, and...that's usually it. Even with TTT2's wacky customization options at EVO last year the fighters were usually wearing default outfits (and if they had custom outfits they were generally bland). It's great that DOA has so many outfits which are often varied and designed well but they don't all need to be available imo for offline play and when it becomes the primary attraction of a fight (rather than the players' skill) I think it's a problem. I can't show off this game to friends with how awesome Helena player X is when all they keep saying is "How can she move with that swimsuit riding up her @ss like that? O_O". Another example is ShackNews which thankfully @Mr. Wah came in and saved the day to portray the game in a more positive light (as opposed to spending most of the time putting the girls in string bikinis and utilizing the six axis function).
So why not have both worlds where there's still the casual aspect with the outfits but then sticking to more conservative outfits (referring mainly to the girls) when showing off the actual fighting?

I heard someone complaining that they were telling their friend it was a fighting game. They both picked random outfit, and both ended up with bikinis, and then the friend just dropped the controller and walked home without even playing. That said, i think the outfits can play out strategicly with offline multiplayer and when someone's really stupid online. Mainly, people have noticeably bad reaction times and noticeably bad mind-games when certain characters are in certain outfits. It's dirty, but it works, and i think we need to understand it as a legitimate strategy to the game.

Learning different defensive moves can be a bit difficult (that doesn't involve blocking, counter, or sidestep) which would require going through tutorials to overcome it or understanding on how it works, even using holds does require to know which attacks to counter which would require experimenting, knowing which ones to avoid, & a lot of game time by challenging Max Difficulty CPU & online matches.

DoA's execution barrier is probably the lowest of any fighting game (aside from smash [which has a second barrier which is hard as heck to break]). The issue is how to know which defensive move to do and when to do it. It's so important in DoA, but it's also, probably, the most difficult aspect of the game (honestly, aside from some really annoyingly hard inputs that aren't worth their trouble, what is hard in DoA?).

It is true that you don't need to know the whole movelist to do better, I don't know every moves in Tekken but I still do pretty decent along with DOA5. (part of the many movelist is mostly coming from 3D fighters where there are many ways to attack, which you don't have to know everything.) When I was playing Tekken Revolution (plus few matches in TTT2), it took Me a lot to know which attacks to either sidestep, duck, & block especially with players that intend to spam or annoy you with cheap attacks. (especially Kazuya & Law to name a few) It does take experience to be able to fight decent & avoid cheap tactics.

And this is the issue. In these games, it's so easy to dish out pain, but so hard to return the favor once the "puck" is on your opponent (to use terms from TWEWY). The puck likes to land neutral, but leaning towards your opponent's side. Regaining control of the match requires you know how to deal with everything, which, from the way i see it, requires you learn everyone. This becomes an investment issue which is what pushes people away, which leads to the flack that 3d games get (especially DoA).

This pattern is pretty common when it comes to getting into videogames or how some became pretty successful (even others try to be like them or try to appeal both but may end up failing), especially from someone who played almost every fighting game, knowing history of different franchises or companies, even details that are mentioned (like Ono, Harada, Hayashi, Itagaki for some examples). Another thing when it comes to characters that are used the most is which a player of any skill level would actually use or understand their characters on what are they pretty good with, especially since there are many characters to explore even have different styles of fighting, ranging from easy to play with to understanding them at a more experienced level.

Right, and, to make matters worse, the tier for this kind of thing isn't always obvious, either. On smash, people land on Mac, Kirby, and Mario rather quickly, which helps it alot (Smash really has everything going for it, when it comes to learning).

I agree, simplifying the game isn't the best method or way to get players into the game (which usually leads to divide players or not liking the game all together. there may be few exceptions). Maybe not just having a easier experience within the game, but maybe characters can also play a big role (like I mention about different levels) where you can give them more easier experience but still has amount of skills or tech to master (even have characters that changes the experience). Even tutorials (like what DOA5 & other fighters have) which pretty much tells you everything from basics, advance, characters, & combos can also be very helpful, but it is very optional which players can still have fun even if they didn't go through tutorials they may not need to know everything to stand a chance or how to have fun. Another thing on getting the game to succeed, is how much access you have (since it would require people paying to be able to play a game) like demos or like Core Fighters (which is a free to play experience) along with having the full game (for someone that doesn't mind paying full price, even Arcades from other countries can help too).

Yeah, most people are not going to just jump into tutorial mode to play the game, especially if it's not in the F2P version. It's hard to get smash down right without reading a tutorial, but you can get yourself to a well off position without the tutorial. IMO, there's so many things they should've done differently with DoA's tutorial. Maybe in the future we can work on convincing TN of how to make a proper one for 6.

This especially...the girl would spend more time waggling the controller in the win screen than actually playing the damn game.
Also, keep in mind...we are simply USED To things being oversexualized due to being used to anime and videogames. Newcomers however, still can't get over it, and so it helps to use defaults instead of the bikinis. During the 3/2U era, I would constantly have family (Specifically, my bitchy sister) hovering over my shoulder just insulting and talking shit every time because of the bikinis and stuff.
eehhhhhhmmmm.
I will fully admit I'm a casual player, and I had to give up on the combo challenges and certain command training lists (ryu's alternaute izunas). Flat out can't get the timing down on the overly complex crap.

When it comes to the outfits, this is exactly what we need to hear, read, or whatever. Also, alot of us have grown up on the porn filled internet, so we're dulled by it. I play DoA, knowing what they're trying to do, but i also know that googline "4-chan normal people" gives me much worse stuff. And let's not get started on rule 34. That doesn't mean that certain things won't still affect us, though.

 

[Rikuto]

Which is pale in comparison to the culmination of the average customer.

This is something most people don't understand, but there is something that could effectively be called "the dream" which effects a lot in regards to customer loyalty, even among the non-competitive players.

The Dream represents the general player's dormant fantasy to compete and be recognized. Most people never get to this point, but in order for the fantasy to seem more like a reality it has to be made possible.

Take a game like League of Legends. If the game existed in all of its glory, but there was no opportunity to compete in it for whatever reason, would millions of people play it? No, they would not. Even casually the game would take a massive hit. Because to some degree, every casual player has the dream. If, one day, they were to wake up and suddenly realize how to play at a high level, then there is an opportunity waiting for them. And that keeps them playing, because there is a culture around it and people strive for that recognition and excitement.

Players need to be able to dream. If they can dream, they can keep playing regardless of reality.

Money and player investment in the tournament scene is investment in the dream. And the dream keeps everything going. If there is one failure that can be made, its not making its presence more known to the average player.