News Emperor Cow Meets Tomonobu Itagaki!

Xernuht

Well-Known Member
Which....I can't fault him for, like it or not.

He made a game with a vision in mind, and people weren't playing how he intended, so he tried to rectify it.

...

Not a perfect analogy, but just bringing up the point that the original creator has every right to be unhappy when other creators take a different direction with their....creations.

This is what I understand about Itagaki's views. That said, I wish he weren't so stupidly vocal about his disapproval, and that people would stop pestering him about DOA/NG. We're just twisting the knife every time we do it.
 

TRI Mike

Well-Known Member
I'd even dare to say DOA3 was good "by mistake". He even claimed that he never intended for Bass to be that good because according to him, wrestlers should not beat ninjas. It wouldn't be the first time a competitive game ends up better than what the developer originally wanted. What a fucking idiot. I can't believe I spent so many years praising this fucker.

His attitude is a disrespect to the current TN and to himself because he created the thing. He should shut up and just work on his stupid-ass shooter he's being making for 5+ years. I'm not 100% happy with DOA5 but it pisses me off to see his thoughts on FB and the hundreds of idiots talking outta their asses.
 

just_me

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Have you even listened to our critics, or have you just tuned them out?

Does "our" mean "your" and, you refer to stuff like the following?

The way he's describing it, you were meant to learn the game by mashing and figuring out when to mash each thing. Now, mashers win simply because they mash, and they have no idea why their mashing won, other than their mashing was better than the next guy's mashing. And i can say with a clear conscience that in dimensions, i could predict what kind of move my button was going to do. 1 usually had me doing a long range low attack. 2 was your basic low crush. 3 was your basic low-crush mid. 4 was you mid long range attack. 5 is your standard jab or kick. 6 was your mid (usually short range and knee). 7 usually was a sabaki strike, a roll back, or some other kind of escape to attack idea. 8 and 9 were highs (not sure what separated them yet). Your P+K was strong attacks and punches/elbows that were normally in the middle of strings, as well as your guard break. Your H+K was usually kicks from your strings. Not rocket science.

This is a rule of thumb and has never been a universal truth, it's just as true for DoA5... because like 80-90% of the moves in DoA5 are from previous games and even have the same input...
I don't see the difference.

Not really. Now you have stuns that last a limited amount of time, and you have to get to threshhold somehow without being predictable enough to get held, but not accidentally knock your opponent down, then you have to burst, then you have to launch just to get max damage. And to make matters worse, fewer moves get the ball started. Before, it was basically stun, stun well enough, launch.

Again almost all Stun animations have been in previous games... and most Stun properties have not changed, or only got slight tweaks (duration, unholdable frames etc.) Critical Dmg/Threshold has been there forever and it has an effect on launch height since DoA4 (actually DoAD has the most complex system here)
You always had to do as much Crit Dmg as possible, then do your best Launcher+Juggle to get max Dmg of an initial stun... this however is a min/max Problem and not a beginners concern (especially since the difference between the optimal Combo and "any launcher and mash some P" is often fairly small)
Most moves still stun on NH, basically everything still stuns on CH... again the difference between the different version is not as big as you make them out to be. DoA4 (and thus DoAD I guess) had the highest amount of moves that stun anyway... wasn't as much in older games.


I learned that by mashing until my opponent was on the ground. The same thing does not work with 5.

Why not? The Ground Game is not that fundamentally different...

Imho you oversimplify the older games while you overcomplicate DoA5's system.
The core mechanics are still the same as is the "general flow" of the game.

And you are right that he's talking about completely different people. Beginners are not experienced players. He's saying that beginners don't have enoguh experience to get into the game, and he planned the game out so that that was how beginners would slowly build up and become experienced players that no longer mashed.

And you may point me to a single conscious design decision only found in DoA1-4 that supports this claim, because I don't see any.
 

Kohlrak

Well-Known Member
Does "our" mean "your" and, you refer to stuff like the following?

Nope.


This is a rule of thumb and has never been a universal truth, it's just as true for DoA5... because like 80-90% of the moves in DoA5 are from previous games and even have the same input...
I don't see the difference.

Pretty soon i'm gonna start quoting my own posts when responding. The moves are the same, but their attributes aren't. And with fighting games, if you loose 80-90% of the movies, that completely changes the character.

Again almost all Stun animations have been in previous games... and most Stun properties have not changed, or only got slight tweaks (duration, unholdable frames etc.) Critical Dmg/Threshold has been there forever and it has an effect on launch height since DoA4 (actually DoAD has the most complex system here)

You always had to do as much Crit Dmg as possible, then do your best Launcher+Juggle to get max Dmg of an initial stun... this however is a min/max Problem and not a beginners concern (especially since the difference between the optimal Combo and "any launcher and mash some P" is often fairly small)

Exactly, except fewer moves are stunning. Anything i can do to get a stun on normal hit is really slow startup, unsafe, or both. And have fun actually getting better than normal hit and actually see it before it happens, so you can respond appropriately.

Most moves still stun on NH, basically everything still stuns on CH... again the difference between the different version is not as big as you make them out to be. DoA4 (and thus DoAD I guess) had the highest amount of moves that stun anyway... wasn't as much in older games.

Right. The fact that you could predictably stun someone was really useful for beginners. DoA5 stuns significantly less, so it's harder to do any real damage to someone without knowing a ton of setups. The hardest part is the initial stun, then all you had to do was hit someone without getting held and without knocking them over. Now, if you're any good, you just have a bunch of setups memorized.


Why not? The Ground Game is not that fundamentally different...

Imho you oversimplify the older games while you overcomplicate DoA5's system.
The core mechanics are still the same as is the "general flow" of the game.

Fewer stuns, so now alot of what i do doesn't stun, so they can throw a stunning move out (knowing which moves stun), mine hits, then theirs hits mine (because my move doesn't stun them), and now i'm stunned and taking a beating while he's laughting at the 3% of his health bar missing. Those little changes can make a big difference. Now, if i try to learn and compensate by throwing out moves that i know stun, i get held because it's pretty obvious what has to come next from a given character because of nasty recovery time (high or mid punches [and it gets worse if you've got someone like marie who stuns an opponent out of range for your few follow up attacks]). Now, if you want to win, you must be good at stagger escaping I'm having lots of issues with that), and/or must know what hold to spam. Every time i get stunned, i know i'm going for a ride. The only time i win matches, is when i pretty much stop them from getting that stun on me.

And you may point me to a single conscious design decision only found in DoA1-4 that supports this claim, because I don't see any.

It's the attributes. Many of the moves are quite alike. When moves are similar enough, you only really need to know which moves are fastest to know how to get where you want. Know your launchers, and know a simple weightless BnB, and now you're playing decently, and just need to learn more ways out of the same situations, so that you have options. Then, you can expand on your combos, etc.

You see, those games already have it, so you can't point to a conscious design that pushes it. However, you can find a unconscious design in DoA5 that kills it: fewer stuns. You see, with 3d fighters, chip damage is mostly meaningless. What you do is you beat a single read to put them into the roller coaster, then you do a few moves to keep them in their seat (getting them to threshold), then you flip the switch (launch), and they sit there and enjoy the ride (your universal BnB). If you can get to that stage, you work on making your coaster a little bit better (or worse depending on how you want to view it). When the options to get them in their seat decreases, it becomes harder (for better or worse) to mix it up to get the person in the seat to go on the ride. When those few options remaining put you in a situation that's harder to keep them in the seat before you flick the switch, that's harder. Thus, it's harder for people to get to that stage. Worse yet, it makes the game simpler, on one hand, because now people who understand that have less options to memorize, and it becomes more braindead. Fortunately, the competitive scene knows about frame advantage and disadvantage (something that's hard to study without having your foot in the door) of all moves, so they have more options, which is why they just come right in and knock everyone over and no one has a clue why that one stun works for the one kicking their rear end, but they always get punished for trying to use it.
 

Leifang

Well-Known Member
Even though I love Dead or alive 5, I still liked Itagaki past Dead or alive games. Still sad he had to leave the way he did.
 

Kasumi-Phase-X

Well-Known Member
After reading this, I think EMPEROR_COW did a pretty good interview with Itagaki, there things I agree and there are things I disagree...

Part of his four main pillars would be something I give credit to since DOA is a game that has the correct balance when it comes to players to appeal niche, people who like fan service, casuals, fighting game players, & hardcore competitive players. It is not a bad idea to have an equal balance without overshadow others. But there are also certain comments that stood out the most from what you Itagaki-san said in your interview along with part of your trash talk about DOA5 after amount of reading. Which I have a lot to talk about to a point of a huge wall of text.

1. Identity: As far as DOAs identity as a fighter, I'm pretty sure the majority of people that aren't into DOA or what they view as a fighting game will never look at main DOA titles (not counting Xtreme spinoffs) as a fighter with or without Itagaki himself, maybe even have problems with Itagaki's creation from females, costumes, extra content (like the Breast Option, Age Limit, CG Gallery), being able to move the games camera, or the breast physics itself. Part of the ecchi, fanservice, or appearance would apply to themes of the games themselves or characters (plus there is still the age ratings, which there are certain content that you wouldn't see in CERO or other anime/manga, its also about how handle things when it comes to details). I think what matters more for DOA to identify as a fighter is gameplay by via screenshots & trailers, sex appeal shouldn't mean anything when it comes to identity and characters can have multiple appearance which they can be fighters as well (than just something you'd see out of other typical martial art groups that you would see in dojos, tv, action movies to name a few).

2. Sex Appeal & DOAX: Part of the DLC costumes at least the majority (there are exception) of them does reflect & is faithful to part of the DOA series when it came to the costume choices, but there are flaws to part of their DLC method. To Me what I think things gotten downhill was when Training Gear Set DLC came to play which every girl (that isn't any of the Japanese DOA Girls, Hitomi, & Marie Rose) were wearing Japanese Gym cloths which I think is just plain out of character since they weren't born or go to schools in Japan, nor they may not be into these uniforms if you know who they were (doesn't follow how older members use to did for costumes). Even NyoTengu who isn't from the human world was also wearing a Gym Uniform which also doesn't make sense along with other costumes that doesn't follow part of her background.
Even costume direction & themes are all over the places almost if it was being done by completely different members with no order in place nor focusing on one choice, even going as far as losing logic with the Bath Towels & Girls have nothing but leis covering their breast (as one of their pre orders) which doesn't make sense as an outfit that is meant for fighting (it should've been on seen cutscenes, gravures, & backgrounds). Which makes it look like certain members are either trying to immediate Itagaki's creation even they don't get what made them pretty solid or how to do it right. Another problem is that certain characters are getting ignored while others gotten way too much attention when it comes to DLC costumes, which is also pretty unfair to people who like these said characters.
While I understand to an extent of not wanting too much sexualism, but making DOAX as a firewall to appeal to the casual & people who love ecchi (like I do) in an attempt to separate the tone of a fighting series is not the way to handle it. People may only look at Dead or Alive as the Xtreme series, not the fighting game series because its part of DOA history since it uses their characters (despite DOAX isn't the main series). Which would require you to give up one or the other, like should DOA series remain a fighting game series or should it be just be the Xtreme series. Its like you need to know what your including in your game, or makes Me think that you forgot what you created in the past especially DOA1-4 along with the DOAX 1 & 2. You could've easily made your on IP (not include any DOA characters) if that's how you feel about DOAX.

3. Fleet & Dividing: This also part where your pillars will crack & completely fall flat on its face which all your efforts to appeal many players will go to waste. While I understand part of Ninja Gaiden since it was mostly an action game to begin with (there wasn't sexy content back in the 80s, until other games in the 90s including content that scene in other medias or what is going on in the world, even ones that will cause controversy) even modern NG1-3 took place before DOA, but making fleet between DOA & DOAX doesn't work that way like I've mentioned.
Trying to appeal to every gamer is no where a simple task to do or something you can't easily executed very well (unless you took a safer route that isn't a niche genre or doesn't have ecchi, trying to follow what other companies or developers are doing to a point of having a game exactly like other popular titles), it feels like something that isn't even worth trying without having members having their own mindset on what they're into or what taste do they have which is very conflicting which can easily be divided. Trying to getting them together into a universe will cause problems or people wouldn't want to play your game. Its like having pets to live together which they may not like each & will start fighting with each other, which dividing them would be the best method to prevent fights.
If you really don't want everyone divided your going to have to make a decisions on who do you want to appeal and it can't be both or everyone, which what you include in your game will be the path you will end up taking & can't turn back.

4. New Players/Beginners: Wanting to attract new players by all means isn't such a bad idea which can expand the gaming audience, but there is a problem. There is no easy way or any accomplishment to give newcomers to have a fighting chance. Even if these players were playing older DOA games or other fighting games, these newcomers will just mash buttons randomly when they're pretty new to fighting games including 3D fighters or wants to think "I think I can play this game" feeling like they're on top of the world until reality strikes them pretty hard when they discover tournaments, communities, & online which they might be pinned against a player with skills will end up with nothing but loses (maybe few wins or just 1 win). Almost every genre is about you succeed or you fail, fighting games is a type of genre about fighting skills which many newcomers will never get into fighting games may pick ones that are too easy which hardcore fgc will never touch those games because it doesn't have much to offer when it comes to high level play.
Fighting Games are like martial arts, which is something you can't automatically be a master within a day will end up with a humiliating defeat even certain hardcore fighters could be nasty to them along with hurting their feelings which those newcomers will be upset & just quit all together. There is no room for mercy when it comes to fighting one of the best players, which that would require them to study & practice part of DOA5U tutorials & command training from DOA1-5 is a better options to practice & improve your fighting skills.
Out of all the traditional fighting games which there is amount of high level play or technical skills required, I would even go as far to say that "DOA5 & VF5 are the fighters I would recommend to play for todays generation rather than something like Tekken 6 or TTT2 which has a lot of inputs & skills which is to the point of overwhelming not being able to learn everything." This video is better example on how fighting games are not easy:

Outside of what everyone thinks of Dead or Alive, I loved series for what it was from cute/pretty/sexy females, I also liked male characters, the gameplay itself, the extra options that effects the breast, the story itself, music, many choices of outfits & swimsuits (including DLC ones), scenes where girls are spending time at the beach, the tutorials it has to offer, photo mode, and the mini games from Xtreme spinoffs. I really don't want the series to be changed too much to the point where DOA became an empty shell, I just want them to improve & become one their best, and I also want the balance to be equal (at least with my own views). I do believe DOA5 isn't completely ruined or DOA itself isn't a mess either, the real mess could either be the new members or the company itself I'm even ending up looking at Itagaki as a mess (after the reading I had to do and hours I spend on making this post). After reading the post that was made in neogaf that Itagaki talks about, I feel like Itagaki was capable enough to just end the franchise, which the only one that can fell into tragedy & not continue on is the same man that created the series in the first place along with leaving stories unresolved where DOA will end in a cliffhanger that will never reach the conclusion, or choosing to not make a sequel. Which at that time, had control before he left Tecmo along with DOA.

I'm starting to think that the DOA series can do better without Itagaki since Devils Third hasn't been released yet and who knows what he wants to do for the series. The passionate DOA members can continue to keep the series alive. The only thing I can ever do for DOA, is just get a PS4 to get DOA5 Core Fighters, practice My skills to become a skilled player, & going to EVO to support the side tournament.
 

Kohlrak

Well-Known Member
4. New Players/Beginners: Wanting to attract new players by all means isn't such a bad idea which can expand the gaming audience, but there is a problem. There is no easy way or any accomplishment to give newcomers to have a fighting chance. Even if these players were playing older DOA games or other fighting games, these newcomers will just mash buttons randomly when they're pretty new to fighting games including 3D fighters or wants to think "I think I can play this game" feeling like they're on top of the world until reality strikes them pretty hard when they discover tournaments, communities, & online which they might be pinned against a player with skills will end up with nothing but loses (maybe few wins or just 1 win). Almost every genre is about you succeed or you fail, fighting games is a type of genre about fighting skills which many newcomers will never get into fighting games may pick ones that are too easy which hardcore fgc will never touch those games because it doesn't have much to offer when it comes to high level play.
Fighting Games are like martial arts, which is something you can't automatically be a master within a day will end up with a humiliating defeat even certain hardcore fighters could be nasty to them along with hurting their feelings which those newcomers will be upset & just quit all together. There is no room for mercy when it comes to fighting one of the best players, which that would require them to study & practice part of DOA5U tutorials & command training from DOA1-5 is a better options to practice & improve your fighting skills.
Out of all the traditional fighting games which there is amount of high level play or technical skills required, I would even go as far to say that "DOA5 & VF5 are the fighters I would recommend to play for todays generation rather than something like Tekken 6 or TTT2 which has a lot of inputs & skills which is to the point of overwhelming not being able to learn everything." This video is better example on how fighting games are not easy:


DoA still overwhelms you at first. The competitive scene is happier with SF and SSB, which are easier games. We can expect fighters to be hard to get into, but the situation with 3d fighters is just downright awful.
 

MeadowSpirit

Active Member
For learning, they are. Sure, it's alot faster and execution takes a bit more practice, but you can predict playstyle before touching the characters. After about 5 minutes tops, you know that character.
Smash Bros. is for babies, so of course it's easier. I think you're WAY off the mark with Street Fighter, though. The learning curve on that series is much steeper than DOA, IMO.
 

Jyakotu

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Smash Bros. is for babies, so of course it's easier. I think you're WAY off the mark with Street Fighter, though. The learning curve on that series is much steeper than DOA, IMO.
I dunno. With Street Fighter, most characters have the same directional inputs for their moves. If you're playing a charge character, you know what you have to do. Most characters in SF have a 236, 214, or a 623 input. That's why, IMO, it's easier for me to adapt to SF and most 2D fighters than it is in 3D fighters, where I have more strings/moves to remember and more frames to study.
 

Kohlrak

Well-Known Member
Smash Bros. is for babies, so of course it's easier. I think you're WAY off the mark with Street Fighter, though. The learning curve on that series is much steeper than DOA, IMO.

Meta-game, maybe. However, when a new character comes out, that new character is learned in 5 minutes or less. When you realize that learning anything is mostly learning the tools, you can appreciate that. If i play someone who's equal level to me in DoA, we're both just going to be hitting buttons and winning 50% of the time, hoping that what i'm doing works against what the other guy's doing, not knowing for sure. In street fighter, i know i lost simply because he ultra comboed me and i didn't block. Or, i didn't throw him for that easy damage when i had the chance. I know that when he throws a fireball and jumps over it, that i need to find a way to deal with that fireball so that i can deal with the jump attack. In DoA, i'm just learning to hold, but i'm told there's other strange mystical options that work for everyone but me (side-step, block-and-throw-punish, command-side-step, crushes, sabaki, etc), and i don't know why they don't work for me.
 

virtuaPAI

I am the reason why you are here!!!
Staff member
Administrator
Itagaki: said:
YOU say that because you are a pro hardcore player! But I look at it from a game designer standpoint. It is almost impossible to attract new players with the way the game plays now. Look back at the older DOAs. When a new comer tries out the game for the first time, his first instinct is to just press the buttons randomly. But, those button presses usually lead to some very visually pleasing moves and even at some points lead to that beginner’s first victory. When a new player experiences this, in his mind he would think, “Hey, I think I can play this game” and would start to play it more and maybe even attract more players to play it. When you compare this to the state DOA5 is in, a new comer has virtually no chance at all. The technical gap is so huge to the point that the game will feel too awkward and this new comer will never be able to play effectively or ever get a win. A game like that would never sell. This is why they thought they can overcome this by making the game more erotic and milk you loyal players all out of your money with erotic DLC. It’s disgusting.

-What is so fucking sad, here you have a designer who created a fighting game series with the intent for casual players to effectively do well in. He succeeded 100 fold, in comparison to DOA's Mother VF who is Rigid and is unfriendly(Virtually due to its underwhelming visual/interactive/immersive appeal...in comparison to freaking every other major 3D fighter. Shit TK is undoubtedly a more complicated fighter than that of VF, and gets away with it due to its greater visual appeal! Lets all be honest here, outside of a select few techniques, VF is not complicated at all!). Having succeeded and accomplishing his goal, why would he get so offended by us competitive players finding more to his game than he ever imagined!!!! He should be proud that we took his "Casual fighter" and showcased its diversity by also allowing more technical/high level competitive play!

-Also, He is 100% incorrect about his competitive play analysis of the series pre-DOA5. The fact is, DOA has always been a series about the new comers virtually having no chance against seasoned vets.. Sorry Mr. Itagaki, You took the wrong fighter to base your game upon. All of your changes leading up to DOA4 did not make DOA a more shallower, more simplistic fighter than Mother VF, your drastic changes simply created a new paradigm! Except for SHITTY DOA4 where you actually were able to create a fighter that simply had no depth and casual play is the highest level competitive growth! So all those DOA's sold well even having the same so called issues DOA5 have.

-Last but not least. DOA5 is not the first DOA to have lack luster stages. Except for a very few stages, DOA4 had horrible stages. None of them even compare to any previous stages. infact There are DOA5 stages that shit all over DOA4's, like: Flow, Sanctuary, Home, Sakura and Hot Zone!!! And the all the stages are freaking functional!!!
 

d3v

Well-Known Member
Which....I can't fault him for, like it or not.

He made a game with a vision in mind, and people weren't playing how he intended, so he tried to rectify it.

It'd be like Monopoly became about competitive loan sharking and tax evasion, the makers would be all "THE HELL thats not what I made the game for!" and try to change things to get rid of that in the next version.

But then someone else got ahold of the game in the version after THAT, and brought back the tax evasion and loan sharking and focused on that, while the original monopoly guys had left. The original monopoly guys would surely be unhappy that their baby didn't grow up as they had planned.
The problem is that Itagaki approached his design from a very, very scrub-like perspective. He basically looked at things he, for all intents and purposes, found "cheap", and decided to neuter those with little thought to how these changes would affect the game at high level play.
 

Argentus

Well-Known Member
The problem is that Itagaki approached his design from a very, very scrub-like perspective. He basically looked at things he, for all intents and purposes, found "cheap", and decided to neuter those with little thought to how these changes would affect the game at high level play.
Okay I'm gonna say an unpopular opinion here.

High level play is irrelevant from a game design standpoint. For the sole reason that high level play is created from existing game design elements, exploiting and manipulating various mechanics and the like to effectively create min/max strategies. High level play will come into its own, regardless of the designers intentions, so there's virtually no point in even taking it into consideration, ESPECIALLY, when he intentionally created the game as primarily casual fighters. Its different in cases like, well, most 2d fighters, where they just say "fuck game design" and instead focus ENTIRELY on high level play. But DOA isn't like that.

Its like Smash. Its still a casual party game, first and foremost. But people have found ways to treat it like a "serious" fighter by editing out certain parts, exploiting other flaws in the mechanics, etc. And I think THAT'S what Itagaki intended, even if people generally don't agree that he achieved it. He wanted a game that was a fun GAME, while at the same time, able to ALSO be played at a high level, not just one or the other.

I will say though, that one of Itagaki's flaws was that he either didn't understand, or refused to accept, that players generally wind up finding ways to play games that are different from what the creator intended.
 

Kasumi-Phase-X

Well-Known Member
DoA still overwhelms you at first. The competitive scene is happier with SF and SSB, which are easier games. We can expect fighters to be hard to get into, but the situation with 3d fighters is just downright awful.
It can be overwhelming if the newcomer worries on how many movelist there is (it isn't as much compare to Tekken), knowing which move to counter, & some characters are either ones you don't find yourself doing pretty well (maybe something like Bass, Gen Fu, Bayman to name a few) or inputs that are not easy to pull off (example the Izuna Drop). Even if DOA can overwhelm players at first, there are always characters that are much more easy to use or pick up play without training yourself.

Honestly, Street Fighter will always be in every tournaments (with few exceptions or until olds get replaced eventually) even the lineup will always show SF as number one along with Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 taking number two and any SSB title will get the number 3 spot (there might even be more than one game, even one that was not officially made by Nintendo Project M, despite it is a modified version of Brawl to play like Melee) although despite SSB Wii U is at number 3 in EVO15, SSBM that was originally number 3 from previous years ended up on number 8.
But anyway SSB for certain is indeed easier to play (if you were to ignore part of Melee's tech, speed, & combos) & learn character moves or how to play the game, which pretty much any players (unless they don't care about SSB) will likely pick up a copy of SSB whether they'll play it just for fun or for competitive play.
Street Fighter is a little easy (with some exceptions to many mechanics or how it is use), but it would still require to understand on how the special moves or supers work if that newcomer has never played SF or other 2D fighters, even if they did played 2D fighters they've never been able to do d,df,f input for example (which 3D fighters have inputs like that too). Some moves, newcomers will not easily execute or be able to pull off during matches (like 360-degree type inputs from either Zangief, Honda, or T. Hawk to name a few, or Delta motion for supers from Guile, Vega/Balrog (Claws), or Decapre) which part of these inputs time & bit of practice. SF can only be easy if newcomers can do inputs that doesn't require too much to learn like Ryu, Guile (except Supers), or Chun-Li for example.

Part of getting into fighters will still apply to the newcomer or players themselves what they prefer for games or how much they understand games (even if they don't have much skill). People could still want to play games that despite it isn't easy, would want to beat it or learn them (maybe similar on how I got into fighters). Part of 3D fighters is that they've expand more when it comes to mechanics or combos for example, even if it meant that these added mechanics or heavy combos just divide opinions on what they prefer. Even SC series started to become much more simple, even Tekken 7 may try to appeal beginners which some people will not be a fan of. The choices to offer is very limited since there are 4 main title to choose (not counting other third party media games), there are other 3D fighters that didn't see more titles or certain series stop at recent tile that did no justice to the original.
 
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