Community Soapbox: Why Last Round is not at EVO...

[deathofaninja]

It seems like there is this big outburst as to why the game isn't at EVO and people have a lot fingers they are pointing in all sorts of directions and I'm not getting it with all of the moaning and groaning and surprise from the community. Are you really that surprised?

Some people donate their time, some people donate their money, and some donate both to this community and those people are excluded from this, but there are seriously people out their complaining that haven't even showed up to one tournament/event. And to them I ask, what gives you the right to even be a part of the conversation?

The reason DOA isn't at EVO is because this community is completely divided and not enough people are working within the community itself. Communities are not just message boards where you bitch about a character not returning or not liking this or that. A community is more than. A community comes together and gets things done, donating a part of their life in some way.

I may have only been to one tournament, but I saw the effort that went into that tournament alone. It wasn't recorded because of certain issues, I'm not sure it broke 20 people, but yet a dedicated few traveled all the way from another state just to put on a very small show on the grandest stage of them all... EVO... where we were not even noticed.

At some point this community has got to put in extra work to get a pay-off like the Smash fans do, and like the SF fans do. I've seen how their community works. There is love, dedication and a serious care for making the community another part of their lives.

It's funny that I go to one Smash event in Vegas and I'm instantly confronted on hang-outs, tips on improving my game and more. And online I see people here talking shit about player skill level, and who is not worthy to watch, and who is cheap and who is broken. Look how long Melle has lasted with Fox leading the tier-list for years. There is no excuse to point fingers at people who play as Christie, there is no excuse for paving someone as a bad player because they are not as good as Kwiggle or SR.

Infact if you look at interviews from Kwiggle and SR they are handing out advice, they are expressing to the community how fun the events actually are and how fun and important they are to even building social skills.

My plea and my hope for Last Round is that this community can finally fully go in and be the community it should. It's not fair that all the labor and work is going to Wah and Katsu and Team NINJA and a few others.

Not to say that there has not been improvements in this community. Look at all the guides, the news, the tournament numbers increasing. Let's not worry so much about EVO, because we still have more work to do as a community.

I know that I myself can not point fingers because I'm first in line to point fingers at Team NINJA and KT when things don't go my way, and I realized that to the point where I am working on what I say for the sake of this community.

Let's not play the name game, let's not play the blame game. We have a great game that we are still all playing, we have loving people in this community, and we have a new game that is now coming out on so many platforms that we must anticipate higher numbers of new players that need to see what we can do and what we are made of.

With Last Round, let's show people what we have learned, and let's love one another like a good community should while teaching the newcomers accordingly while still enjoying the game we have enjoyed for years. We are small, but we have come a long long way since the original DOA.

Tom Lee wrote a huge statement, and for me it personally said a lot. I intend to put everything I have into Last Round, and I hope that everyone else will try to.

 

[David Gregg]

EVO is both a popularity and veteran contest. More players (including players from the previous year)+attendees = more $$$. DOA 5 is a game that's been two and a half years in the making that will reach almost every gaming console next month. It has solid fighting mechanics and is very entertaining to watch. EVO has always had the opportunity to spotlight an underdog that could in turn help DOA gain some attention for the awesome fighter that it is. I'm not saying that many of these series weren't already popular before EVO, but EVO has certainly helped keep many of them just as if not more popular now. So it definitely feels like a slap in the face that not only would they not consider DOA, but they would include two smash games (so that they wouldn't upset fans), and went out of their way to include T7 arcade at EVO which has half the fanbase baffled b/c most of them won't even be able to play the game before the event. Tekken 7 at EVO 2K16 sure but they really couldn't have given another 3D fighter a chance this year? Just one year?

TL,DR Unless someone can convince me otherwise, the reason why DOA isn't at EVO is because they don't want it at EVO.

 

[deathofaninja]

Like I have expressed, I hope that we don't bicker too much about not being at EVO, and use this information to our advantage so that we can not only improve the community, but take our game to new heights through more effort. We have the talent, we have the game and the great characters it comes with. But the reality is we have more work to do together if we want to push our game to its bigger rightful place.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I'm going to say exactly what I said on facebook.

I'm not surprised DOA isn't at EVO. Smash 4 has been out for only a few months and it's community has been everywhere supporting. Killer Instinct has been growing and it's players have been getting out to everything it's at since it's scene started.

Meanwhile, one of DOA's primary focus from majority of it's playerbase is online, online rank, being disrespectful to everyone that's not in their online clique. While most of us are doing everything we can to support our offline scene and others dismiss it with 1001 excuses not to attend and get it out there in higher limelight.

DOA5 has been out for two years and it should have been thriving on a larger scale by now. Just being real about it. If we want our game to have an actual shot at a tournament event that's known worldwide, the community has to step it up. Repeating the same process we have isn't going to get us anywhere.

Nothing is changing until people stop repeating this behavior. Just an FYI.

 

[d3v]

It also helps that EVO was almost going to be no 3D until there was pressure from some quarters to have Tekken again.

 

[Argentus]

Why does anyone care? Evo is known for being biased towards certain series to begin with.

 

[pachincko]

I'm a Asian and I have to say that EVO is totally a western style or even focus on American style party, sometimes not a tournament not a championship not a cup just a party for American people and a few overseas friends which can afford a time and a flying ticket.

Someone in China who went Tougeki several times this week totally supported my opition above.They only claim Tougeki as a stage for Cyber Game.(If you learned Chinese you can see at this site:http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/7roeXBKSi4o/)

And also someone mentioned that the USF4、UMVC3、SSBDX、SSB4、KI、MKX these 6 titles are totally American food that maybe in future July they will turn off watching when these games show off cause these are not their types and they want to see KOF13 or else.

 

[Pupi18]

Meh I prefer non-EVO events more.

 

[Kohlrak]

The things we're blaming TN/TK for have nothing to do with strong division. The stuff they're dividing us with isn't even out yet, so there's no way we can point the fingers at them for our division (future's different, though, but we can easily overcome that if we can get our act in gear).

You're gonna find that the issue is the learning curve. 2D fighters are simple in that you can easily figure out your own moves, and the shenanigans of the other fighters are easily recognized, memorized, and foreseeable. 3d fighters are a totally different story, and we need to work on fixing that learning curve. I think the easiest solution would require TN, however if we can find a solution in the community that we can show works, TN can make it part of the game to make it easier for us. I've outlined it enough times on here.

Now, if we can get enough people on here to help offset the rest, the rest will see we're a cut above them. We gotta work hard and be better than them. Then, we need to not act like it. Let them realize we're better without us telling them. When they ask why we keep winning, why we're so annoying, say "yo, add me, tomorrow i'll take you to online dojo and show you." This will be slow at first, but 1becomes 2, 2 becomes 4, 4 becomes 8, and 8 becomes 16. After 10 instances of this, if everyone does as they should, you should have 1024. That's 1 month. 16 becomes 65,536. Now, not everyone will adhear, but that's why we need to fix things up.

And look, if call of duty can do it, so can we. It's not like the either crowd really acts any different, except DoA fans usually only crap on 2d games, not all fighters.

EDIT: The issue is, there's alot to learn, people get frustrated and tired of people not learning. The people learning don't have enough knowledge and experience to use it. Then you end up people that beat others by mashing, then you have 3 skill levels, where the 2nd level things it's better than the 3rd level, then cries and whines, the 3rd level gets ticked off, and the 1st level is the one that suffers.

EDIT2: For clarity, you get in your first fight and get whooped. The people you fight are usually people who just throw wild punches (basic mashers). After time, they learn how to throw punches properly, and where to punch (advanced mashers). Then you have people who go to dojos, and some of them are McDojos, which teach really bad techniques or advice (the advanced mashers who think they can teach the game). Then you have people who are coming real dojo, and they get advice from Master(s). However, those people get overwhelmed and discouraged by the advanced mashers, they loose faith in the methods of the masters, and they inquire from the masters how they get better. The masters say to practice, and to only use the techniques that are taught to them. They continue to get beat, and then they move onto a McDojo which teaches them flashy moves that works against other people of the same tier. The masters give up, say the world isn't ready for their techniques, and only teach people privately who can prove their worth. The dojo that are successful are the ones where the students only ever fight each other until they're ready to take on the master (win or loose). When they finally go out into the world, hopefully on a stage so they survive the ordeal, they get beat by the lesser tier. The coach tells them that they got overwhelmed because they were expecting the same tier. They lost because they lost their cool and didn't see what their opponent was doing and realizing how to combat it.

 

[CyberEvil]

EVO is not the payoff for our game. We need our own thing.

EDIT: Also important to note, as the title indicates, that this is DoaN's thoughts on it, not an actual reason we're not at EVO.

 

[petopia]

Meh I prefer non-EVO events more.

I like the hipster attitude approach too which was why every body flocked to the Blazblue final the most for match of 2014.

 

[Codemaster92163]

I'm going to say this here and be more direct about my position. I and several people I know have been personally called out for not attending tournaments, having heard that we're part of the issue that, apparently, a lot of people seem to think is the only thing that matters in this community. Saying who won't matter, since they already know who they are and there's no need to start a flame war, but attending tournaments (which, again, I want to but can't) isn't all that there is to the FGC.

I've hosted training sessions for Pai, written guides, posted most every combo and setup I know, talked tech with fellow players, offered advice and did most everything I could to improve both the players and the character. Why I can't attend tournaments, frankly, is no one's business but my own, and to say you have a right to see me go or know why I can't is both frustrating and inane.

I want to go, as I assume many others do as well. I can't go, and put bluntly, it's none of your damn business why I can't attend. I know some of you are helpful in getting people to tournament via rides or food, but that's not my issue, and to think that those are the only issues that arise is myopic.

If you want the tournament scene to thrive, that's understandable, but I get so sick of players slinging blame left and right when you have no reason to. The community is growing, the offline scene is growing. You can't expect for DOA to be hosted at major events in just a hop and a skip. It takes time.

Meanwhile, many of us that don't attend are still contributing to the community and still being, in a manner of speaking, treated like shit by X and Y because we can't go to Z tournament. Offline attendance is important, but so often do I see everyone neglecting everything else that makes a community great (player advice, friendships, sharing knowledge, etc.) in favor of one area of it. I buy the games, I share my knowledge, I talk to and help/am helped by other players, so give me a modicum of credit in actually caring about the game and the community. Just because we're not always going to see you all in person doesn't mean we're somehow detached from the community or those that comprise it.

 

[Kohlrak]

I'm going to say this here and be more direct about my position. I and several people I know have been personally called out for not attending tournaments, having heard that we're part of the issue that, apparently, a lot of people seem to think is the only thing that matters in this community. Saying who won't matter, since they already know who they are and there's no need to start a flame war, but attending tournaments (which, again, I want to but can't) isn't all that matters.

I'm glad someone with some authority finally said it.

I've hosted training sessions for Pai, written guides, posted most every combo and setup I know, talked tech with fellow players, offered advice and did most everything I could to improve both the players and the character. Why I can't attend tournaments, frankly, is no one's business but my own, and to say you have a right to see me go or know why I can't is both frustrating and inane.

Thank you for that, as well.

I want to go, as I assume many others do as well. I can't go, and put bluntly, it's none of your damn business why I can't attend. I know some of you are helpful in getting people to tournament via rides or food, but that's not my issue, and to think that those are the only issues that arise is myopic.

And here's the issue, because we constantly hear about these magical fountains of money that magically appear to help people, so thus we have no excuse not to attend.

If you want the tournament scene to thrive, that's understandable, but I get so sick of players slinging blame left and right when you have no reason to. The community is growing, the offline scene is growing. You can't expect for DOA to be hosted at major events in just a hop and a skip. It takes time.

Meanwhile, many of us that don't attend are still contributing to the community and still being, in a manner of speaking, treated like shit by X and Y because we can't go to Z tournament. Offline attendance is important, but so often do I see everyone neglecting everything else that makes a community great (player advice, friendships, sharing knowledge, etc.) in favor of one area of it. I buy the games, I share my knowledge, I talk to and help/am helped by other players, so give me a modicum of credit in actually caring about the game and the community. Just because others and I are not always going to see you all in person doesn't mean we're somehow detached from the community or those that comprise it.

To be honest, this seems to be more of an issue on here than anything else. We're told that online sucks, so we say to adapt, but we can't adapt, so it falls into this. Obviously the game is viable, otherwise TN would prioritize fixing the netcode. We're just doing things wrong.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Although there is some truth in community blame for the lack of participation in Evolution, the big reason it's not in Evolution is because the organizers of Evolution have stated in private discussions that Dead or Alive will never be at Evolution again based on its performance nine years ago for an entirely different game. That's the simple answer.

I'd love it if we as a community can get in on our own merits, it'd be great. However, it's never going to happen from what I understand of the organizers of the event - regardless of if we start getting 1,000 man entry tournaments or not.

So support your local scenes and other major events like those from Big E Gaming because they're examples of people who are trying their best to help our community grow, and it has grown. In the past nine years we have gone from a "good" turnout of 14 players to a current average of 60 at a major tournament.

 

[Kohlrak]

Although there is some truth in community blame for the lack of participation in Evolution, the big reason it's not in Evolution is because the organizers of Evolution have stated in private discussions that Dead or Alive will never be at Evolution again based on its performance nine years ago for an entirely different game. That's the simple answer.

I'd love it if we as a community can get in on our own merits, it'd be great. However, it's never going to happen from what I understand of the organizers of the event - regardless of if we start getting 1,000 man entry tournaments or not.

So support your local scenes and other major events like those from Big E Gaming because they're examples of people who are trying their best to help our community grow, and it has grown. In the past nine years we have gone from a "good" turnout of 14 players to a current average of 60 at a major tournament.

Then it's our job as a community to work on getting the game popular enough to make evo look foolish for that decision.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Then it's our job as a community to work on getting the game popular enough to make evo look foolish for that decision.

I was hoping TFC was going to become the "3D Fighter" mecca tournament because I believe if there's any one american tournament that could become a rival to Evo its the one being run by the top three TOs of the East Coast, but 3D fighting game tournament players seem content or just used to being treated like the second tier games.

 

[Kohlrak]

I was hoping TFC was going to become the "3D Fighter" mecca tournament because I believe if there's any one american tournament that could become a rival to Evo its the one being run by the top three TOs of the East Coast, but 3D fighting game tournament players seem content or just used to being treated like the second tier games.

Because we pretty much are. The learning curve makes entry hard. In another thread i realized that the secret to this is that we can easily learn characters from other games because we can pick up any character and we can play a completely viable strategy without using any special moves. The only hope 3d fighters have is to find a way to macro move-lists so you have certain reliable techniques that work with all characters, and only a handful of "shenanigans" unique to the characters to learn. I made a thread about this a while back and it died with "there are no universals," but now that i've experimented with a few characters, i feel that is not true. When i hit random in dimensions, i knew that i could rely on P being my fastest move, 2P being a crush, and hitting 1, 4, or 7 and then a P or a K would land me a wiff-punisher.

That's not enough, but with my sporadic playing of DoA, i feel that there are alot more, and that i need to take some time to figure out what they are. There also appear to be semi-shenanigans in DoA, where certain classes of characters have shared inputs for certain types of moves (i remember 5 vanilla hinted at this by saying 46P or 46K would be a strong hit). People need to learn how to play the game with universals only before they an make educated character choices that fit their own playstyle and tier. Right now we aren't seeing anything like that in the 3d fighters, ant it inevitably makes the games "too boring to learn" and thus second class games despite the effort being put into making them being much higher than 2d fighters. Fighters are second class games to most of the gaming population, anyway, so this just complicates matters more, but you find the reason is because the only one that is taught right (and you find this is the one you're most likely to get people to play) is Smash Bros.

So you already know, right off the bat, that learning curve is a major issue for fighting games. When you see that other game genres are also showing signs of the same thing (notice platformers are popular right now, but RPGs aren't?), you know that it's important. DoA doesn't work for this, since it's easy to deflect the question to "boobies," but ask anyone why they don't like a particular game. Usually it's "boring." Usually you can ask and ask and ask, and eventually they say "because i don't get it." It's boring, because they don't get it: they don't know why they suck and they have no idea how to improve within 5 minutes to keep their attention span. My girlfriend told me that Resident Evil 6 was boring, but she kept dying during the opening cutscenes. Before that, she said it looked fun. I've been told the same thing from people here about 2D fighters: they're boring and don't make sense.

It's funny, though, I bring it up, people agree that something is going on here, but we continue to try to do everything the same way. When i first came here, i was saying things like that, and i actually had people volunteer to talk to me privately about this issue, about how what we're doing isn't working. With different people, i got different results. The issue is, the stuff we have (the character tutorials, the combo tutorials, etc) is useful for people with a certain level of competency. It's only useful to people who've played 3d fighters (or at least 2d fighters) before (and more than 1 of them). Different stages of development need to focus on different things, but we aren't. You need people to be able to get up and going on their own quick, and able to beat the computers without mashing (this is where mashing starts, since the AI is easily mashed, as long as you mash different levels). Then once they get used to mashing and winning, it's hard to pick up the pieces and getting them to start over and learning the right way, because mashing works fast. And if you know bullies, street fighters, and martial artists, you will see that this is no different from real fighting. It's also very true of skills. Fighting games, however, are where this human thought process issue comes out most clearly. We not only have to learn how to present the information better, but we also need to learn how to fight the human learning process.

 

[CyberEvil]

...and now irrelevant. Check the front page. We'll be there. Time to step up or shut up, guys.