System What I Feel Could Solidfy DOA's Position as a Competitive Fighter.
- Thread starter Force_of_Nature
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This topic is becoming repetitive to me so I won't voice my opinion about it. However, to be fair, everyone has an opinion of fighters. Even the ones who say "DOA is a great game". No, I'm not saying it's bad, just saying that opinions are opinions. To say that "this is your opinion, not a fact" when you're arguing the same thing with an opinion of your own that's against other's is a bit rhetorical. My main thing with the community right now is the majority of them don't take the game seriously & don't care to actually learn how fighting games actually work. Not just DOA. It's any game. So they'll diss all of the other games or come out with posts to people that are sideways about them.
For an example, I bet you 75% of the community doesn't even know what neutral game is, what makes or breaks a character, & how their character AND the game itself is supposed to be played. It's not a diss to anyone & it's not intended to piss people off. It's just the honest truth. What is the major aspect of the mechanics that people talk about? Combos. Juggles. Not ground game, not neutral game. Not what's safe & unsafe aka how to keep them safe while fighting. Not even frame advantage. Just how cool & life threatening combos are. They can't tell you how, why, when, or where a tool is supposed to be used because they are not trying to figure it out. An advantage of a tool on hit or on block. How to breakdown a character. They only care about the cool combos & how it looks winning against people.
News flash (Wake up call): Juggling really doesn't mean a damn thing if you don't know how to actually "fight". These are important things to know that lead to juggling. If you don't know when to apply a whiff punish, then how are you scoring damage? Because you're sure as hell not going to get it just by doing a raw launcher. If don't know when to crush or when to apply an interrupting counterhit, then how are you going to get off anything? How are you going to get off a good guaranteed combo if you don't know when to apply it? These type of things. How are you beating good players when you're not actually putting the time & effort into it? Please, tell me. I want to know.
What is stagger escape? What are its pros & cons? What is oki? What are the positives & negatives of oki? What does ground game do & how can it be a positive & negative thing? What is an attack vector? What does an attack vector do for you? What are a character's strengths & weaknesses? These types of things. You don't know why I sometimes get frustrated with people here? This is why, because while I want to take the game serious & I love the game, the company around me except like 25% of you don't. Plain & simple. I would rather be exposed as either a bad or an inexperienced player in a 100-man tournament event than place Top 16 or Top 8 in a 12 to 30 man event. That's just real talk.
EDIT: Another thing is that people need to stop just worrying about the online netcode & netcode only. There are more aspects of the game too. Not just the netcode. Yes, it needs work, but people really need to start digging deeper into the game than just online. Learn the difference on & offline... By breaking down the game & the character that you like.
For an example, I bet you 75% of the community doesn't even know what neutral game is, what makes or breaks a character, & how their character AND the game itself is supposed to be played. It's not a diss to anyone & it's not intended to piss people off. It's just the honest truth. What is the major aspect of the mechanics that people talk about? Combos. Juggles. Not ground game, not neutral game. Not what's safe & unsafe aka how to keep them safe while fighting. Not even frame advantage. Just how cool & life threatening combos are. They can't tell you how, why, when, or where a tool is supposed to be used because they are not trying to figure it out. An advantage of a tool on hit or on block. How to breakdown a character. They only care about the cool combos & how it looks winning against people.
News flash (Wake up call): Juggling really doesn't mean a damn thing if you don't know how to actually "fight". These are important things to know that lead to juggling. If you don't know when to apply a whiff punish, then how are you scoring damage? Because you're sure as hell not going to get it just by doing a raw launcher. If don't know when to crush or when to apply an interrupting counterhit, then how are you going to get off anything? How are you going to get off a good guaranteed combo if you don't know when to apply it? These type of things. How are you beating good players when you're not actually putting the time & effort into it? Please, tell me. I want to know.
What is stagger escape? What are its pros & cons? What is oki? What are the positives & negatives of oki? What does ground game do & how can it be a positive & negative thing? What is an attack vector? What does an attack vector do for you? What are a character's strengths & weaknesses? These types of things. You don't know why I sometimes get frustrated with people here? This is why, because while I want to take the game serious & I love the game, the company around me except like 25% of you don't. Plain & simple. I would rather be exposed as either a bad or an inexperienced player in a 100-man tournament event than place Top 16 or Top 8 in a 12 to 30 man event. That's just real talk.
EDIT: Another thing is that people need to stop just worrying about the online netcode & netcode only. There are more aspects of the game too. Not just the netcode. Yes, it needs work, but people really need to start digging deeper into the game than just online. Learn the difference on & offline... By breaking down the game & the character that you like.
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Sorry. This is just a thread that is showing players still have a lot to learn with this game (Me included). It's sad how long DOA5 been out, and the player base is still so far behind. I'm sure if people did less time bitching, and suggesting what they "think" need improvements and did more understanding the mechanic and characters, that maybe they would see why what you suggested Force isn't a problem with the game. Advance stuff is strongly over looked. Seeing that there is no neutral game just hurts. And I'm not going to go through everything that is wrong with what I just read. Sigh. This makes me sad =(
This game has an amazing training mode and a ton of tools in using it so efficiently. You can easily learn how to side step single strikes and points in strings by utilizing that feature. It's been two years now, you have to step it up. These things are just excuses at this point.
DOA5 is already a great and solid game and even a competitive game. It's the playerbase that doesn't care enough to put it in higher limelight. Actually let me rephrase, it's the North American players that do not care enough to put it in higher limelight.
Admittedly, the offline scene is bigger in comparison to older games, and that's great to have. I love seeing it grow and I enjoy events I have the pleasure of attending because I love to compete and meet other players. But it needs to be better and the player base needs to develop a lot more.
The game is NOT the issue, the player base is.
DOA5 is already a great and solid game and even a competitive game. It's the playerbase that doesn't care enough to put it in higher limelight. Actually let me rephrase, it's the North American players that do not care enough to put it in higher limelight.
Admittedly, the offline scene is bigger in comparison to older games, and that's great to have. I love seeing it grow and I enjoy events I have the pleasure of attending because I love to compete and meet other players. But it needs to be better and the player base needs to develop a lot more.
The game is NOT the issue, the player base is.
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
I'm with JDE on this. Those who feel DOA could use some improvement in some areas are always going to be met with those who think the game is perfect as is. Nothing fruitful is ever gained from this discussion. I personally think DOA could use improvement in a few areas but I don't care to voice my opinion. For now all I can say is leave it to TN and just play the game.
Exactly this.
Oh, come on now...
93% of the people here at least know what neutral game is, myself included. You're simply underestimating a lot of players, and not giving them enough credit. Most of them just choose to remain silent in these discussions because, like myself, they're likely not as well-versed in discussing strats as others. The ones being vocal about making drastic changes to the gameplay are actually the other 7%. And even then, that 7% is usually based on what outsiders of the community complain about when they lose, which, to be fair, makes it only SEEM like it's 75% at times.
Don't give up on us all yet! =)
Were I in better standing, I would also use this argument to quell the stigma surrounding tag. But seeing as I am who I am...
Some people are just born with skill. That's the only explanation I can give for that.
A means of escaping a stun quickly without using holds.
With practice, you can buffer into high crushes when anticipating a throw during stun when your opponent thinks you will use a hold. However, some unholdables are difficult to escape from, and in some instances you have no choice but to guess a hold to get out of certain setups.
That's easy, it's a shortened term for okizeme, which is a broadened term used for strategy involved while the opponent is getting up from a knockdown.
You could force the opponent to guess on wakeup, but if you predict what the opponent does wrongly, the tide can turn against you.
Ground game centers around force techs, ground throws, hard knockdowns, and positioning for frame advantage on wakeup. Usually when you try to set up such things, you may risk maximum damage from a juggle in exchange for positioning force techs. Some down attacks however, allow the opponent to get up however he/she wishes, so knowing when and how to use them can benefit for you or against you.
Basically what a strike does on normal, counter hit and hi counter. It can vary on stun types, types of knockdowns, stun extensions, stun resets, bounds, hell, even guard breaking on block.
An essay isn't what I had in mind, but I enjoyed the game of 20 Questions nonetheless.
No... that's just crazy talk.
On whatever little pride I have in me, I could never live that down peacefully, for reasons you know too well. Such ridicule drives me mad. Please tell me this is a late Thursday joke. Please tell me you wouldn't prefer to be ridiculed by the masses because you lost poorly in a tourney. You're better than that.
You don't have to tell me more than 10 times.
Tempest said:
Indeed. It would be awesome if DOA could have, like, a 10 hour tutorial that go from teaching how to attack or block, to teaching how to apply pressure, or how to properly control space. All things considered, I think Team ninja did a bang up job on the tutorial and Training mode for DOA5U and would be shocked if they added even more depth to it. It would be welcomed of course, though TN obviously has finite resources to work with. Skullgirls also has an outstanding tutorial. Another thing that compounds teaching DOA to new players is the heavy focus around the meta-game. Things aren't always "black & white" with regards to DOA, which presents its own challenges.
Sidestepping does work to avoid linear single strikes, but I think the problems arise from the fact that the vast majority of attacks in this game are strings so you need to guess where the string will end or if a follow-up will be used. You don't really have that problem in other 3D fighters. I do admit that "consistent" in this case may not have been the correct word.
SoulCalibur 2 is a common favourite amongst SC fans and was a pretty solid game despite some rough balance issues. It's still fun to this day. SC3, for the sake of argument, isn't a competitive fighting game, people just played it for its offline content lol. SC4 has horrid balance and Hilde was indeed broken. SC5's balance was actually pretty good, all things considered. As for the movement, I'm guessing you're referring to the use of step-g? I think Project Soul nerfed it to discourage the overuse of sidesteps by making it riskier and less safe. I feel that that change fell in line more with what PS was trying to achieve with SC5's gameplay in the sense of making you have to rely on reads more instead of abusing safe options. It's for better or worse, but I can see how more old school SC players can dislike it (though, this is a different discussion in itself).
Tenryuga said:
It's an unfortunate situation, but I guess that's just how things are sometimes. It's your choice if you would like to remain quiet on the subject, but I am genuinely interested in your opinion.
I have trust in TN since they've done an utterly fantastic job with DOA5 & DOA5U so I look forward to any improvements they make to the DOA series in the future. I just hope that Koei-Tecmo doesn't hold them back too much because I feel TN deserves better.
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-Ugh. Well I must say that SS in DOA5 is no where near as bad as some are saying. SS like in VF have a distinct ruleset that must be respected. Their are either moves that track(which cannot be evaded), or moves that do not track(can be evaded). IlVF's SS Is just far more simpler than that of DOA5's and is being confused as it being superior. A skilled player will be able to evade according to wether the incoming attack is either circular, or half circular...which all can be done visually by watching your opponents incoming attacks. It also help that the majority of attacks/strings can be evaded due to them being linear attacks...with a the far minority being either circular or half-circular!
-DOA5 do not have such luxery in that a player must know exactly when attacks/strings are either tracking, or non tracking. This is compounded by needing to know which part of a string can actually be evaded, or double evaded!!! This actually requires a player to know exactly which defensive manuever is best suited for the given situation! Lets not forget, unlike those other fighters mentioned, DOA5 have very strong defensive options available pretty much at all times!!! So with that said, it shows that DOA5(variants) provide a significant amount of depth when dealing with defense options, and that you simply cannot use everysingle option just because. There must be a specific rhyme and reason for its use(SS).
-DOA5 do not have such luxery in that a player must know exactly when attacks/strings are either tracking, or non tracking. This is compounded by needing to know which part of a string can actually be evaded, or double evaded!!! This actually requires a player to know exactly which defensive manuever is best suited for the given situation! Lets not forget, unlike those other fighters mentioned, DOA5 have very strong defensive options available pretty much at all times!!! So with that said, it shows that DOA5(variants) provide a significant amount of depth when dealing with defense options, and that you simply cannot use everysingle option just because. There must be a specific rhyme and reason for its use(SS).
So essentially in essence you're saying that SS is going to be utilized less often in DOA5 than in the other 3D fighters like VF because of its relatively limited usage being reduced to just avoiding specific single strikes, or the final linear strike being used from a string? This more or less seems about right, though a large aspect of 3D fighters IMO is the ability manoevre the ring in a 3D manner. DOA5 has a good freestep system, so the SS system kinda stood out to me. The aspect that perplexes me the most is why multi-hit linear strings (as little as 2 hits) are given the capability to stuff SS attempts. I can understand if the string went *Non-Tracking, then Tracking*, but the way how it's designed in DOA almost seems to discourage its usage by adding the additional risk. But, yes, VF's SS does come off as simpler in comparison, which is interesting considering that it's considered the "more complex" or "solid" game.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Multi hit strings can stuff Step attack; Not Sidestep. Like if you try to sidestep attack a good portion of the time you will lose to Hitomi's 6PK. If you do a regular side step you pick up frame advantage instead. Some moves with + frames when stepped become throw punishable. I'm not gonna go into detail on what I think could use improvement on other areas in the game but I will say that I think the SS is fine and works as intended. What actually needs to be toned down IMO is the level of innate tracking in the game because some characters legit don't have to make reads on step because the anti step is just built in everywhere on their movelist which is pretty stupid. I understand step killing as a strength. Not step REMOVAL(This is an exaggeration but really there are some characters in this game you might as well forget SS exists against IMO).
I would say characters like Ein and Kokoro have just about the amount of tracking the average character should have with some one like Kasumi being on the list of step killers as well as Hayate when he is at + frames.
Real talk Kokoro players; Your character doesn't get raped by step. She just can't autopilot to blow it up like most of the cast and actually has to make reads on it/ discourage it with conditioning which is honestly how it should be for some others in the cast IMO.
However to accomplish this would be unrealistic because it would require strings to be redesigned. So I just accept it as is. Maybe DOA6. Or never. NBD to me.
On the subject of VF steps this is the way I see it.
VF step is designed to beat poking/strings and escape frame traps and punish high recovery moves.
DOA step is designed to beat pokes, escape frame traps and punish at specific strikes or points in a string with step attack. As it already is going deep into strings in DOA is a highly unsafe method of attack so sitting there and blocking then trying to retaliate or interrupt is a better response than step at that point anyway IMO unless the string ender is pretty common and easy to step / beat with step attack. The first 2-3 hits of strings are handled fine with just a regular or double step and well placed step attacks.
I would say characters like Ein and Kokoro have just about the amount of tracking the average character should have with some one like Kasumi being on the list of step killers as well as Hayate when he is at + frames.
Real talk Kokoro players; Your character doesn't get raped by step. She just can't autopilot to blow it up like most of the cast and actually has to make reads on it/ discourage it with conditioning which is honestly how it should be for some others in the cast IMO.
However to accomplish this would be unrealistic because it would require strings to be redesigned. So I just accept it as is. Maybe DOA6. Or never. NBD to me.
On the subject of VF steps this is the way I see it.
VF step is designed to beat poking/strings and escape frame traps and punish high recovery moves.
DOA step is designed to beat pokes, escape frame traps and punish at specific strikes or points in a string with step attack. As it already is going deep into strings in DOA is a highly unsafe method of attack so sitting there and blocking then trying to retaliate or interrupt is a better response than step at that point anyway IMO unless the string ender is pretty common and easy to step / beat with step attack. The first 2-3 hits of strings are handled fine with just a regular or double step and well placed step attacks.
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-Yes, for the most part. SS was never meant to be in the same Vein as it was/is in the VF series. This is also true as in how Defensive holding plays a more intricate part in competitive DOA5 play as opposed to the meager reversal system found within the VF series. It also should be noted that in higher levels of play, SS actually has more given options. Yes DOA5 is very string heavy, however, its usage gets reduced significantly due to most strings being negative on block. Meaning players are going to cut strings short....enabling the usage of SS!!!
-DOA5 has a good freestep system, so the SS system kinda stood out to me. The aspect that perplexes me the most is why multi-hit linear strings (as little as 2 hits) are given the capability to stuff SS attempts. I can understand if the string went *Non-Tracking, then Tracking*, but the way how it's designed in DOA almost seems to discourage its usage by adding the additional risk. But, yes, VF's SS does come off as simpler in comparison, which is interesting considering that it's considered the "more complex" or "solid" game.[/QUOTE]
-As Tenryuga has stated: Multi hit strings can stuff Step attack; Not Sidestep. Like if you try to sidestep attack a good portion of the time you will lose to Hitomi's 6PK. If you do a regular side step you pick up frame advantage instead. So in fact, The majority of successful stepping results in frame advantage!!!
Good point about the overuse of tracking in DOA5. I think you hit the nail on the head in regards to the issue with sidestepping in this game in that people can almost throw out any random attack or attack string and it will CH a step~then attack attempt. For comparison, in VF, you need to be more conscious about using tracking moves in order to CH sidestep attempts.
Characters I play such as Ayane and Kasumi pretty much never have to worry about an opponent sidestepping them, because my go-to pokes end up tracking and CHing into them anyway. Choosing to use SS attacks seem to require a considerably strong read to the point that the risk/reward may not be in its favour most of the time. There are other things that annoy me in DOA5 such as the pickiness of angled wall hits, but I think you're right that the amount of innate tracking in DOA could stand to be toned down a bit if anything.
Simply all we need now is more players that have a killer fucking instinct (no pun intended) to win and improve instead of learning how to be a better keyboard warrior. I've said some shit, yes I know, but that's because I hate anything that adds to the problem with holding the image of our beloved game back.
@J.D.E. about the netcode: It makes no sense that a growing game like DOA still falls behind in an important aspect like netplay, while games with small-from-the-start or dwindling communities (ie: Soul Calibur and KI) have AMAZING online features and netplay. This is not the biggest issue, but as far as what needs to be done for the game itself, this is really the only REAL existing problem.
So let's level up. I don't care what "team" you're with, or where you're from, let's work! Last Round should be our peak, not our plateau.
@J.D.E. about the netcode: It makes no sense that a growing game like DOA still falls behind in an important aspect like netplay, while games with small-from-the-start or dwindling communities (ie: Soul Calibur and KI) have AMAZING online features and netplay. This is not the biggest issue, but as far as what needs to be done for the game itself, this is really the only REAL existing problem.
So let's level up. I don't care what "team" you're with, or where you're from, let's work! Last Round should be our peak, not our plateau.
Hay'Ito'Ein
Member
I m
I disagree ssing in this game needs improving.after watching tournament footage with high levels getting slammed into the wall. I Never seen 1 able 2 wakeup n successfully ss any string to get off that wall.y is that?am i wrong?please direct me to the media.... where is the proof ssng works .cause you rarely see this in high level tournament play.I never seen this work when a person is pinned against a wall.except ohs from Bayman,Mila and MR special movements. Or it was designed not to work when you ideally would need it. no need 2 attempt flaming just direct me to the proof. Tournament media only,cause when good players dont even use this not even alphas.....IMO its need improving
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Argentus
Well-Known Member
um...I think the only way to make the netcode not shit is to somehow supply all players with fiberoptic nasa level landline connections.
that said, they do need to fix the whole "strings tracking" bs. I still see nonsense like characters retracking in full 180degrees in mid string, and thats retarded.
On the topic of "ss is fine you just need to have perfect timing, read, and ss each individual strike in a string", horse shit. Good luck pulling THAT off against the billion jabs a second characters like Ayane and Christie, who are virtually gods online.
OMG THANK YOU YES I've been saying that for YEARS. And not just DOA, either, but most fighters. When I was trying to look up the Sonic Sway mechanic from the DBZ fighters, all I could find was vid after vid of "how to do guaranteed damage combo" or "combo to super", so on and so forth. Ridiculous, I had to search way too hard just to find actual mechanics.
on the topic of Online, I think a good blanket solution would be to do what that other fighter did and just make offline have similar input delay, to mask online differences. And I DAMN sure better not hear any hypocrisy from offline players whining that they'd have to adjust and relearn timing when they've been telling online players to do the same thing this whole time.
It's not to say "juggles aren't important". They are a very important thing in fighters, just if you're not taking the time to learn the game, then more than likely, you're going to go lose 80% of the time to players who are either learning the game or understand the game (& said character). The juggling execution barrier is how you go about dishing out damage or penalizing the player who isn't either learning the game properly or being unsafe. Then of course it can be you making a good read. It's a reward for all aspects of the mechanics. You're supposed to learn the game & break down your character before going into the combo barriers.
@BlankOctober I'm not saying that the netcode isn't important. I agree with a better netcode. I'm saying people put too much emphasis on online play rather than learning the game both on & offline. Players here are literally banking on them to make a better netcode than the game itself. I understand that people can't travel. We've all been through it before, but still, does that alone supposed to stop people from learning the game in both areas? Think about it, yo. That's how bad it is. It's like nothing else exists to them other than a costume that they want or a cool combo video. Even if they (TK) do work on a better netcode, it's still not going to guarantee us all a perfect or even good online session. You got people's connections to factor in too along with the fact that it's not always the netcode. It can be the player's fault too, not knowing what to do, but convinces him or herself that they got screwed when it's them with a lack of understanding of a move. This is hypothetically speaking. VF's netcode is amazing (& yes imo it's better than DOA's netcode) & it still doesn't register proper punishment or guaranteed damage.
@BlankOctober I'm not saying that the netcode isn't important. I agree with a better netcode. I'm saying people put too much emphasis on online play rather than learning the game both on & offline. Players here are literally banking on them to make a better netcode than the game itself. I understand that people can't travel. We've all been through it before, but still, does that alone supposed to stop people from learning the game in both areas? Think about it, yo. That's how bad it is. It's like nothing else exists to them other than a costume that they want or a cool combo video. Even if they (TK) do work on a better netcode, it's still not going to guarantee us all a perfect or even good online session. You got people's connections to factor in too along with the fact that it's not always the netcode. It can be the player's fault too, not knowing what to do, but convinces him or herself that they got screwed when it's them with a lack of understanding of a move. This is hypothetically speaking. VF's netcode is amazing (& yes imo it's better than DOA's netcode) & it still doesn't register proper punishment or guaranteed damage.
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Argentus
Well-Known Member
Exactly. That's why I get irritated at all the vids for fighters just being combo/juggle tutorials, and why I get irritated when I come across people who only know how to do combos/juggles they've looked up on youtube, but don't actually know how to use any of their characters tools in an actual fight, or see that they are on such a "Juggle reliance autopilot" that they can't adapt, they are helpless if they can't get their launchers off.
-Lmao. Trust, It is very much possible. I have done this years before there was a proper Side Stepping system in the series! Look at the name of the very site that you are currently browsing....FREE STEP DODGE(FSD)! That Technique was far more technical and precision based than the Current Side Stepping System, and virtually had the same exact gameplay application!!! Players simply need to not see SS as your lower end defensive technique(as in VF), but more as an advanced technique seeing how players are required(forced) to have a good understanding of their opponents Evade-able Single Strikes and String-Variants.....at the end of the day there is alot more room for its use than many players think.
Side Stepping is a new mechanic to the doa series. Like every new mechanic, it tweaks with every new game released. Should you stop writing about it? No, because you are the the fan who plays this game thoroughly and you have a right to express your idea. Remember, TN wouldn't have made so much cash off of us if we didn't support them and give ideas. So instead of arguing on why we should or shouldn't give our opinions on his topic, let's debate on expanding the idea.
I think you're right, side-stepping seems tacky and uncontrolled, even the look of it is ugly, I would have loved a smoother transition side step so it's less noticeable, at least to make it look more promising.
I think you're right, side-stepping seems tacky and uncontrolled, even the look of it is ugly, I would have loved a smoother transition side step so it's less noticeable, at least to make it look more promising.