System What I Feel Could Solidfy DOA's Position as a Competitive Fighter.

[Force_of_Nature]

Greetings FSD.

I've been mulling over the state of DOA with DOA5U and have been incredibly impressed by how far DOA has come since DOA4 in terms of its status in the competitive community. The game went from being a broken piece of shit with DOA4 to being a pretty damn good fighter in DOA5. TN's support for DOA5 has also been awesome with them assisting in providing $8000+ pot bonuses to two consecutive annual TFC events along with supporting the awesome Road to TFC series in 2014. Yeah, the focus on fanservice does hurt the series' image a bit, especially to potential newcomers, but once you see DOA5U in action, you quickly see how much potential the series has in the FGC.

As you could probably guess, I want DOA to cement its status as a competitive fighter as much as possible as I feel the series deserves to have its time in the limelight. However, there are some mechanical aspects to the gameplay along with some design choices that I feel hold DOA5 back from being a completely solid 3D fighter:

1. The Sidestep mechanic needs serious improving.

I play some SCV, VF5:FS and have dabbled with TTT2 and I can say with confidence that their sidestep mechanics are MILES better than DOA5U's sidestep mechanics. DOA5U's sidestep feels almost tacked on in comparison and always feels riskier than it should be. In contrast, in VF5:FS you can sidestep pretty much any linear move (with very few exceptions) without much risk of being counterhit by a so-called "linear" move retracking into you. In SCV you can sidestep all linear, "vertical" moves. Well as long as you sidestep to the correct side of course (in SCV, or SC in general, you need to SS to the left or right dependent on where the attack originated from or toward your opponent character's "weak side" such as their left usually). The frustrations with DOA5's SS mechanic lead into my next point:

2. Linear moves need to stop tracking and act, well, linear.

To compound the frustration with DOA5's SS system is the game's insistence on the follow-up attacks of strings to retrack. This is the primary issue that makes SS's more riskier than it should be. It's bad enough having to deal with a faster character in your face but, not being able to SS their pokes because their strings end up retracking into you is the most frustrating shit ever. In SCV, and VF5:FS (and TTT2 I think), linear strings don't fucking retrack, you get to step the whole string then punish accordingly! In VF5:FS there is retracking properties but usually if a move is delayed a bit in some way. Though it's not enough tracking to undermine the usefulness of SS. In SCV you can easily SS, then launch punish linear strings (I'm pretty sure you can in TTT2 & VF5:FS now that I think about it). In DOA5, that is much more difficult to do than it should be. This is compounded a little by my next point:

3. The movement at the start of rounds needs to be removed

I know that DOA is very environmentally focused, but I feel that the movement at the start of rounds heavily undermines spacing characters right to space, since close range pressure characters can stay in their at R1F and stay there most of the match. I find that this severely undermines DOA5's excellent spacing and footsies capabilities by making matches seem like a RPS mashfest at R1F. In SCV, close range characters like Natsu or Pyrrha need to work to get in on spacing characters like Ivy or Nightmare. In DOA5, GenFu, Christie or Kasumi don't need to work to get in your face.

To further facilitate this, both characters should have no dangerzones behind them (either move the DZ's perpendicular to them at R1F) or both have an equivalent dangerzone behind them.

There are a couple other aspects that could use tweaking such as corner orientations being a bit more solid and the oki game could be improved a little bit (i.e. fewer invincibility frames for downed opponents). IMHO, the stun system is pretty good where it is, especially if you learn how to SE. The hold system is also fine for the most part because the risk of hi-counter throws keeps it in check. WUK's are also fine due to the numerous ways to deal with them (CH WUK's still hurt quite a lot though however in terms of potential damage).

I'm only voicing these proposed improvements because I really think DOA is very close to being a complete competitive fighter and if these issues got tweaked, that would seal the deal for me. DOA's not just the "Fanservice Fighter" anymore, and people will eventually take notice of it as a solid competitive fighter. Plus you can find fanservice in almost every fighter now. How do you view DOA5's current standing as a competitive fighter?

 

[Awesmic]

I still believe DOA could use some unique side throws if they're now implementing a true sidestepping mechanic. Every other competitive 3D fighter has them.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

SS punishes like in the other 3D fighters would be cool, though I wouldn't mind unique side throws. SS's just feels lacking in DOA in comparison to the other 3D fighters.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

1. The Sidestep mechanic needs serious improving.

No it does not, I'm really getting sick and tired of people comparing a side step mechanic to different games that do not have the same side step mechanic, at all.

DOA5's side step system requires immediate precision as you are only side stepping a single strike, not an entire string. You must time your side step exactly as you know or see that linear strike coming out. If you do it correctly you are rewarded two things; 1) Frame advantage (and the amount will vary), 2) A critical hit that will more than likely give Critical stun, and some characters have pretty strong strikes out of side step (sit down stuns out of side step is nothing to laugh out, at all).

Yes, let's have a side step mechanic where you'll side step all willy nilly with strong side steps strikes that'll give you reward for no kind of precise effort, all because the player just so happened to randomly press their side step button. Trust me, if this game's side step mechanic was so effortless with the amount of reward you gain with side step strikes, people would be whinning about it. And if anyone thinks gaining a critical hit and stun from side step strikes aren't great, then I advise you to study the game more.

3. The movement at the start of rounds needs to be removed

No it doesn't, this is exactly the kind of element that makes DOA so unique and adds another good layer of strategic play to the battle. And I'm happy to see that Killer Instinct adopted this.

The problem is that everyone feels this gives a faster character an overall advantage at Round 1 Fight. If you're always so concerned with wanting the first strike, then yeah, sure. Learn to block, let the faster character start their strike first, blocking something implies that it's not always the attacker's turn to strike all the time.

People need to stop trying to suggest things to change the game and really learn how to play the game, as the game is. The game itself isn't the problem why it's not on higher ground as a fighting game in the FGC. It's on it's own playerbase, the things that players say and negativity they dish into it.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

No it does not, I'm really getting sick and tired of people comparing a side step mechanic to different games that do not have the same side step mechanic, at all.

DOA5's side step system requires immediate precision as you are only side stepping a single strike, not an entire string. You must time your side step exactly as you know or see that linear strike coming out. If you do it correctly you are rewarded two things; 1) Frame advantage (and the amount will vary), 2) A critical hit that will more than likely give Critical stun, and some characters have pretty strong strikes out of side step (sit down stuns out of side step is nothing to laugh out, at all).

Yes, let's have a side step mechanic where you'll side step all willy nilly with strong side steps strikes that'll give you reward for no kind of precise effort, all because the player just so happened to press their side step button. Trust me, if this game's side step mechanic was so effortless with the amount of reward you gain with side step strikes, people would be whinning about it. And if anyone thinks gaining a critical hit and stun from side step strikes aren't great, then I advise you to study the game more.



No it doesn't, this is exactly the kind of element that makes DOA so unique and adds another good layer of strategic play to the battle. And I'm happy to see that Killer Instinct adopted this.

The problem is that everyone feels this gives a faster character an overall advantage at Round 1 Fight. If you're always so concerned with wanting the first strike, then yeah, sure. Learn to block, let the faster character start their strike first, blocking something implies that it's not always the attacker's turn to strike all the time.

People need to stop trying to suggest things to change the game and really learn how to play the game, as the game is. The game itself isn't the problem why it's not on higher ground as a fighting game in the FGC. It's on it's own playerbase, the things that players say and negativity they dish into it.

You can sidestep "willy-nilly" in other 3D fighters and there's no problems with that since you can still get blown up if the opponent reads your sidestep. I'm comparing to other 3D fighters because they are a fair frame of reference. In DOA5U it feels like SSing is too overly risky due to linear strings retracking. With how many strings the average character has in DOA5U you end up being forced to defend linearly more often than you should be compared to the relative number of "single strikes" tossed out. VF5:FS's SS punishment can be more devastating than DOA5U's SS CH stuns.

The movement at R1F can be used strategically but a lot of times it leads to the faster, pressure character getting in the first time for free and then being able to start their pressure immediately. It does make the game look unique but I find also undermines the R1F spacing game. I'm trying to be fair to DOA5U as much as possible, but I'm not gunna stand here and act like everything about the game is perfect when there is always room for things to be improved.

 

[Awesmic]

People need to stop trying to suggest things to change the game and really learn how to play the game, as the game is. The game itself isn't the problem why it's not on higher ground as a fighting game in the FGC. It's on it's own playerbase, the things that players say and negativity they dish into it.

My suggestion about side throws actually give off a negative vibe?

If so, I'm sorry if it came off that way. I just thought it'd be something cool to add since VF, Tekken, and SC has them. This isn't me actually complaining.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

You are definitely guessing if you think side stepping in this game is a risk. You side step precisely what you know you can side step at that given time. This is exactly why I said it requires immediate precision. DOA is a game where information is of the upmost importance, alongside adaption, awareness and yomi.

DOA5 and VF5FS do not have the same side step mechanic or punishment at all. VF also has a much smaller life deficit which is why you die a helluva lot faster, and an offensive and defensive side step mechanic. And it makes sense for that game because it's how the game is designed. DOA's life deficit and punishment are entirely different as well it's environmental usage. This is how DOA is designed.

You have a ton of different ways to obtain damage in DOA5, which is exactly why the life deficit is 300. You have the usual damage that's always been in the game, juggles, pressures, throws, environmental damage. You have Critical Burst, Power Blows AND Power Launchers. This is balanced.

DOA's side step have strikes that also track, have low sweeps, or strikes that will knock the opponent down. This is an entirely different game from VF and SC, and Tekken and works differently. The side step is rewarding when you learn to utilize it correctly.

No character is starting any pressure for free at R1F. Again, let the faster character strike first or crush a certain hit level on read. I never gave or given a flying fu** about a faster character striking first at R1F (I literally do not fear any options Kasumi or Christie or Pai has at R1F). If you feel you rightly deserve first strike just because you have a i9 jab, then it's a tell (it's information).

Both players have the exact same options given to them at R1F. Hayate can legit 3H+K a 2P attempt at R1F for bigger reward than just doing a 6P to beat it out on read. Just like Ayane can easily 4P highs at R1F on read.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

@Awesmic I didn't even see your first post when I wrote mine. Nothing is aimed at you, hush lol.

 

[Yurlungur]

I personally don't agree with the sidestep mechanic since side walking in this game is very very strong and you can't really do that in other fighters, you can actually sidewalk up back which is a very strong tool.

In dead or alive one issue this game has is to establish a neutral ground imo. I literally feel like there is no neutral in this game at times and it's very frustrating(personal complaint, inb4 long article of git gud). Certain characters end up getting royally fucked over due to other ones simply because of the advantage as a player no matter who i'm using i shouldn't feel suffocated right at the start of the round.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

If there is no neutral game in this game, then I have no idea what I've been learning throughout all of last year. A neutral game is EXACTLY why I've become a rather strong player.

And yes, I wholeheartedly agree that the free step system in DOA5 is very good. Movement in this game is extremely fluent.

 

[Tempest]

Not to insult anyone in this thread as most of you are probably better than me, but as a Lisa player I'd have to strongly disagree that there isn't a strong neutral game. Movement at round one start can be difficult to deal with as a slower character, but being slower doesn't equate to a loss. One good read of something like 4h+K or a throw punish and you have space to play with. From there its up to your own ability to use your tools against your opponents.

I'd say things are pretty fair as characters like Gen Fu and Marie Rose that have a lot of strong options from close up can't match up against characters like Ayane and Lisa from a longer range. When you start factoring in positioning your opponent towards environmental damage and how holds give you another way to combat your opponent's pokes I'd say there's a lot of depth to it.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

I personally don't agree with the sidestep mechanic since side walking in this game is very very strong and you can't really do that in other fighters, you can actually sidewalk up back which is a very strong tool.

In dead or alive one issue this game has is to establish a neutral ground imo. I literally feel like there is no neutral in this game at times and it's very frustrating(personal complaint, inb4 long article of git gud). Certain characters end up getting royally fucked over due to other ones simply because of the advantage as a player no matter who i'm using i shouldn't feel suffocated right at the start of the round.

DOA definitely has a neutral game, but I agree that I shouldn't feel like I'm suffocating opponents at R1F. It ends up setting the tone for the rest of the match. None of the characters I play struggle at R1F, but I can see how aggravating it can be for some characters.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

DOA definitely has a neutral game, but I agree that I shouldn't feel like I'm suffocating opponents at R1F. It ends up setting the tone for the rest of the match.

To the bold, no it does not.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I'm trying to be fair to DOA5U as much as possible, but I'm not gunna stand here and act like everything about the game is perfect when there is always room for things to be improved.

No fighting game is perfect. The problem is that DOA's playerbase only complain about DOA instead of learning how to deal with anything in the game. This is that one community that points out problems to a game, instead of figuring anything out.

Ayane would NOT be "anything" of any kind of relevance at all if I were not here. The point in this statement is that I make the character work and have expanded on more grounds to figure out other ways to make her so strong, rather than simplicity that only goes so far. Because I figure things out, I grind it out, and I learn from my experience and errors to make things work with success.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

No fighting game is perfect. The problem is that DOA's playerbase only complain about DOA instead of learning how to deal with anything in the game. This is that one community that points out problems to a game, instead of figuring anything out.

Ayane would NOT be "anything" of any kind of relevance at all if I were not here. The point in this statement is that I make the character work and have expanded on more grounds to figure out other ways to make her so strong, rather than simplicity that only goes so far. Because I figure things out, I grind it out, and I learn from my experience and errors to make things work with success.

So DOA is perfect then overall? I played a match of SCV yesterday and watched some VF5:FS, and do feel in my honest opinion that those games are more solid than DOA5U overall.

Your point about your Ayane contributions is duly noted, but is irrelevant with regards to DOA's current combat system. The other 3D fighters just feel much more consistent in how they operate IMO.

 

[Tempest]

So DOA is perfect then overall? I played a match of SCV yesterday and watched some VF5:FS, and do feel in my honest opinion that those games are more solid than DOA5U overall.

Your point about your Ayane contributions is duly noted, but is irrelevant with regards to DOA's current combat system. The other 3D fighters just feel much more consistent in how they operate IMO.

I'll give you VF5, but SCV has enough issues for me to write a book about, just talking system wise and not even getting into the balance problems and terrible art/story direction. Its consistently terrible if anything. The patch only made it worse.

DOA isn't perfect, and it could be made a great deal more accessible (allowing you to see frame data in command training like VF would be a nice step in the right direction) I feel like a lot of complaints directed at it aren't problems with the system, just things that make DOA different. VF, Tekken, and SC5 are going to look a lot more consistent because they're completely different mechanics wise from DOA. Holds make it impossible to hit confirm the same combos, and make the neutral game very different. Some call it guessing, others call it more read heavy, I think it's fine the way it is.

Environmental damage and stages in general are also something that sets DOA apart. We aren't talking ring outs and slight changes in wall placement, stages like Home and Temple of the Dragon can fundamentally change how characters like Leon operate. If anything I think DOA needs to make itself more accessible to new players by making all of its depth more readily apparent, explaining how things like breakable objects and water work.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

So DOA is perfect then overall? I played a match of SCV yesterday and watched some VF5:FS, and do feel in my honest opinion that those games are more solid than DOA5U overall.

Your point about your Ayane contributions is duly noted, but is irrelevant with regards to DOA's current combat system. The other 3D fighters just feel much more consistent in how they operate IMO.

I never said DOA is perfect, I said no fighting game is perfect. Saying another fighter is more solid than another is entirely your own opinion, not a fact or truth.

My point in bringing up my contributions has every bit of relevance to this topic, because the point of that statement was to imply that I adapt and learn, rather than point out a negative and not find an actual solution. I say it because a ton of people have said all sorts of things about a character and imply it only works at a certain level. The point in saying so is to imply that you can definitely do a lot more than what others try to say if you put time into something. I don't say it to sound cocky, I just say so because it's relevant enough to say that you can do more when you're really determined.

Everything you mentioned in the OP are not issues, they are opinionated retorts you've yet put more time into, so you decided to deem them as faults instead of trying to understand the means. And, y'know what? This is nothing new at all because other players have done it because they have also refused to understand something.

Y'know what top level players in other games do? They learn their game, they learn their character, they learn what other top level players characters can do. They deeply study the frame data. They practice out different and varying scenarios as preparation for a tournament. They find options, gimmicks, tricks, and other mix ups to use that the average player will probably never find.

They mess around with their game's system mechanics to create different exploits to use and possibly further their uses outside of their obvious intended use. SF4 players have been creating and re-creating all kinds of meaty set ups and 50/50s all through SSF4, and still are (and lots of other things) in USF4.

Meanwhile, more than half of our own playerbase still hasn't figured out our game's actual ground game and some don't even know or understand what a neutral game is.

These are not issues with the game you're trying to point out, they are opinions, straight up opinions.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

I'll give you VF5, but SCV has enough issues for me to write a book about, just talking system wise and not even getting into the balance problems and terrible art/story direction. Its consistently terrible if anything. The patch only made it worse.

DOA isn't perfect, and it could be made a great deal more accessible (allowing you to see frame data in command training like VF would be a nice step in the right direction) I feel like a lot of complaints directed at it aren't problems with the system, just things that make DOA different. VF, Tekken, and SC5 are going to look a lot more consistent because they're completely different mechanics wise from DOA. Holds make it impossible to hit confirm the same combos, and make the neutral game very different. Some call it guessing, others call it more read heavy, I think it's fine the way it is.

Environmental damage and stages in general are also something that sets DOA apart. We aren't talking ring outs and slight changes in wall placement, stages like Home and Temple of the Dragon can fundamentally change how characters like Leon operate. If anything I think DOA needs to make itself more accessible to new players by making all of its depth more readily apparent, explaining how things like breakable objects and water work.

DOA's system is definitely more obscure that the other 3D fighters, though TN did put in an effort to include a very solid Training mode along with a fairly in-depth tutorial (though, yeah, it doesn't quite go in-depth enough about the intricacies of the system, however that would probably make the tutorial over 10 hours). In fact, all things considered, DOA5U's Training mode is outstanding compared to most fighters, and I particularly like the highly prolific Move Details. My complaints with SS system stem from a feeling of inconsistency from it because of how easily it can get CH due to the vast number of strings that characters have in this game compared to raw single pokes.

The thing about SCV is that majority of what is "wrong" with the game is mostly people bitching about how it's different from past SC's in terms of roster and the reduced movesets. The gameplay system is very solid in general. The story and art direction is irrelevant to this topic. I'm also not talking about character balance either because I know some characters (*coughsviolacoughs*) were unjustly buffed in the primary balance patch (though its still relatively balanced along with DOA5 character-wise). I just want DOA5 to feel consistent with all its mechanics, because in its current state I don't quite feel its perfect yet but is close. Don't get me wrong, in general I love DOA5U's combat system but can't help but feel it could use slight tweaks to perfect the system. I won't deny that DOA5 has a tremendous amount of depth.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I just want DOA5 to feel consistent with all its mechanics, because in its current state I don't quite feel its perfect yet but is close.

DOA5 is consistent with what's in the game, and;

No fighting game is perfect.

 

[Tempest]

DOA's system is definitely more obscure that the other 3D fighters, though TN did put in an effort to include a very solid Training mode along with a fairly in-depth tutorial (though, yeah, it doesn't quite go in-depth enough about the intricacies of the system, however that would probably make the tutorial over 10 hours). In fact, all things considered, DOA5U's Training mode is outstanding compared to most fighters, and I particularly like the highly prolific Move Details. My complaints with SS system stem from a feeling of inconsistency from it because of how easily it can get CH due to the vast number of strings that characters have in this game compared to raw single pokes.

The thing about SCV is that majority of what is "wrong" with the game is mostly people bitching about how it's different from past SC's in terms of roster and the reduced movesets. The gameplay system is very solid in general. The story and art direction is irrelevant to this topic. I'm also not talking about character balance either because I know some characters (*coughsviolacoughs*) were unjustly buffed in the primary balance patch (though its still relatively balanced along with DOA5 character-wise). I just want DOA5 to feel consistent with all its mechanics, because in its current state I don't quite feel its perfect yet but is close. Don't get me wrong, in general I love DOA5U's combat system but can't help but feel it could use slight tweaks to perfect the system. I won't deny that DOA5 has a tremendous amount of depth.

I'd rather the tutorial be too long then too short and miss important mechanics. When I bought Blazeblue: continuum shift II for the PSP back in the day it had pretty much everything you needed in the tutorial, from basic movement to spacing, anti-air and wake-up game. It went in depth on how to play all 18 of its characters. DOA's tutorial is very lacking in comparison, it only teaches mechanics and fails to help a new player develop any real strategies.

Sidestepping isn't inconsistent, its difficult. Inconsistent would mean that things happen differently in the same situation. What's happening is that DOA has a very large number of moves and strings, and many of them re-track. Unless you're on point with your sidesteps (something that will be very rewarding on a good read) you'll get hit. You could argue that retracking might need to be toned town a bit, but that would be subjective.

Don't get me wrong, I love Soul Calibur, but the series as a whole has had issues being "solid" from Soul Calibur 2 and its silly wall and ground game, 3 and its many game breaking bugs and general balance problems, and 4 had Hilde among other things. I really liked 5's game play until they ruined the movement with a patch. @Rikuto can probably put it into words better than I can but in its current state solid isn't what I'd use to describe it.