DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

iHajinShinobi

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Insightful discussion and breakdown of MUs > Lone number without any backing

Discussion alone is NOT a profound way to determine match ups. You learn your character match ups by playing them out with other players of solid skill. In order to see how effective your tools or certain tools are applied in match ups. A lot of match ups I label for Ayane are from experience, not theories. Match ups are developed playing good and decent players a lot.

Theoretical explanations do not make a break a match up over explanation from experience. Requiem and I did not come to the conclusion of Ayane vs Helena be 5-5 because were being nice or biased. It's based on our play experience.

If you want a breakdown, ask the author of said post about it. Instead of making a fuss about something that has such a simple solution.
 

Brute

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Discussion alone is NOT a profound way to determine match ups. You learn your character match ups by playing them out with other players of solid skill. In order to see how effective your tools or certain tools are applied in match ups. A lot of match ups I label for Ayane are from experience, not theories. Match ups are developed playing good and decent players a lot.

Theoretical explanations do not make a break a match up over explanation from experience. Requiem and I did not come to the conclusion of Ayane vs Helena be 5-5 because were being nice or biased. It's based on our play experience.

If you want a breakdown, ask the author of said post about it. Instead of making a fuss about something that has such a simple solution.
I have, and received the blanketed response of "basically everything is 5-5 or 5.5-4.5, with 6-5s only existing for simplification and the purpose of making a multi-tiered tier list." This point has already been discussed at length and I won't jump in to it again.

Discussion alone is not a profound way to determine match-ups. Experience alone isn't either, however, because one person's case sample may not be indicative of the larger situation for a variety of reasons. That concept is very simple. Both are needed.

To disregard theory, in any subject matter, is to stunt full potential. There are no exceptions to this.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
EIN MATCHUPS


Alpha 152: 5-5 (?)

Akira: 4-6

Ayane: 4-6

Bass: 5-5

Bayman: 5-5

Brad Wong: 6-4

Christie: 4-6

Ein: 5-5

Eliot: 5-5

Gen Fu: 4-6

Hayabusa: 5-5

Hayate: 5-5

Helena: 4-6

Hitomi: 5-5

Jacky: 5-5

Jann Lee: 5-5 (?)

Kasumi: 4-6

Kokoro: 5-5

Lisa: 5-5

Leifang: 4-6

Leon: 5-5

Marie Rose: 5-5 (?)

Mila: 4-6

Momiji: 4-6

Pai: 4-6

Rachel: 5-5

Rig: 5-5

Sarah: 4-6

Tina: 5-5

Zack: 5-5 (?)


Advantage MUs: 1

Disadvantage MUs: 11

Even MUs: 18

I'd like some insight on the ones with question marks.
 
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iHajinShinobi

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Like I said;

If you want a breakdown, ask the author of said post about it.

You speak of wanting insightful discussion but refuse to initiate it. At any point you disagree with said match up(s), then do what my quote said. That is how discussion begins and that is how it continues.

If you do not want to partake in the discussion and want to fuss instead, then don't say anything. Really, enough with that attitude. Learn to be mature and think before you speak. If your next post toward mine is not about a match up, then I will not reply toward you.
 

Prince Adon

Best in the World!!!
Premium Donor
Nope. I don't believe it. I've thrashed more Kasumi's than I can count and most matches were pretty even. Now if this was Ayane, it would be 6-4, but not Kasumi.

I guess you have not played that many players. Infact I bet you have not played anyone. With that said, if you're not going to come up with a legit debate/argument on why you feel something on my list is wrong, do me the favor of not challenging me. I give props to players like Fork and AP for actually having a legit reason on their behave, on why the way they felt the way they do. I give reason of why the match up is the way it is. AP and Hoodless agrees with this. They were the one that gave the info on why the match up is what it is. If you can't give a solid reason why it's other wise, then there was never a debate to begin with.
 

Matt Ponton

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
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1) The most recent MU number posted takes precedence. If that's the case, discussion is pointless, as I could just say 9-1 everything and they'd update it that way.

It's the 1st one primarily. Mainly because I tried #2 on DOA5's and it got nowhere as I wasn't a representative source to determine if said person was 'knowledgeable' enough to warrant the matchup change.

Also, even though he posted the entire MU list, he only changed 2 MUs from what it was listed as before. I believe that was Rachel's and Jann Lee's.

If you want a breakdown, ask the author of said post about it. Instead of making a fuss about something that has such a simple solution.

He did... quite a few times.

---

As for this experience vs discussion topic. Both are necessary. Experience to start a talking point, discussion to better adjust it, experience to help further the discussion.
 

Something-Unique

Active Member
One thing I wanna personally say in regards to this discussion is that I have never seen in all my years/involvement and tiers in fighters is so many 6-4's, 5-5's, 4-6's. It just doesn't happen and DOA5U is no different.

I'm not referring to 5.5's/4.5's either as those are negligible and unnecessary but actual 7-3's and such is what I'm referring too.
 

Force_of_Nature

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One thing I wanna personally say in regards to this discussion is that I have never seen in all my years/involvement and tiers in fighters is so many 6-4's, 5-5's, 4-6's. It just doesn't happen and DOA5U is no different.

I'm not referring to 5.5's/4.5's either as those are negligible and unnecessary but actual 7-3's and such is what I'm referring too.

I think this may be because DOA5U's core mechanics are "balanced" enough to not allow most MU's to stray beyond 6-4. However, I am fairly certain that there are still some MU's that would fall into 7-3 territory. As universal as the core mechanics are, there definitely feels like some imbalances in character tools.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
The core mechanics affect both parties. "MU is 6-4 because holds exist" well guess what? your holds give you an asston more reward than mine do but this is supposed to save a character from a 7-3? Still I would say things are balanced enough that you don't see 7-3s all over the place. Just like 1 or 2 MU in the entire game.
 

StrikerSashi

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
Universal defense mechanics don't make a game more balanced. In fact, I think it makes it more imbalanced. Think of it this way, upsets are more common in shorter sets than longer ones. The more universal defence options, the more likely the better character wins. If every character could one-shot the game would be more balanced (but obviously more dumb) than if every character had ten times the health.
 

Force_of_Nature

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If every character could one-shot the game would be more balanced (but obviously more dumb) than if every character had ten times the health.

DOA, Marvel style?

But yeah, the hold system allows for lucky comebacks here or there, but the noticeably inferior character is still losing 7 or 8 times out of 10 in my experience.
 

DontForkWitMe

Well-Known Member
Why?

Bayman/Leon suffer with range, and neither of them takes out wake up kicks like Rachel can. She still has her stomp set up, and blender/vortex situations. Her mobility is pretty insane with her KBD and wave dashes. Only thing Bayman has that Rachel don't is the tank roll (which isn't that evasive), and Parries (which isn't close to being Gen Fu or Lei Fang status). This doesn't really tell me much, except Bayman/or Leon may have one thing they can do better than Rachel, while Rachel has like 5 things she can do better.

Rachel has better walk speed and superior Korean Back Dash than every other Super Heavyweight (her KBD is one of the best period). She has deeper stuns in threshold, tracking, a strong blender, and controls wake ups easily because her stomp is a solid tool. She has solid mix up in threshold, she has more buttons at range than other Super Heavyweights. And she certainly has an easier time getting her damage. Her air throw has a lot of range.

A solid Rachel hitting you is a lot scarier than a Bayman or Leon ever will be when this character has ways to keep her momentum a lot better than most.

show me da receipts

All im seeing is a bunch of glorifying Rachel's tools while downplaying/ignoring Leon/Baymans tools. Im nowhere near as knowledgeable about Bayman but as far as Leon goes I still don't buy that shes stronger than him. better walking speed and backdashing isn't enough to put her in more advantageous matchups over the tools he has over her especially since they both rely heavily on cqc where Leon clearly beats her out.

She has no easier a time getting damage than Leon who has multiple NH launchers, guaranteed launchers from sitdowns, a slew of 2in1's that either launch or puts opponents in deep lift stuns. his chargeable cb which gives him 2hit cb setups or a high damage hit throw launcher that leads to his air throw. vastly superior guardbreaks that give him +3 through +14 advantage where as rachels gives her a worthless +1 at most, more damaging throws than her with his highest damaging one being i10 along with better OHs that still net decent damage on NH where rachels do no damage and only guarantee anything on CH/HCH, an i16 high crushing sitdown stun which guarantees his 7p which is unstaggerable and forces a must hold situation where leon is free to do whatever he wants, his 3k which gives him guaranteed launch on opponents in crouch status making people think twice about randomly low holding against him. lastly his chargeable strings keep opponents guessing and adds another layer to his mixup potential. Rachel hitting you being a lot more scary than Leon hitting you is laughable. Im not even going to go into what hes capable of in certain stages with breakable objects since everyone and their mama already knows.

Her vortex/stomp while good is still nowhere near as scary and useful as it was pre-nerf since she is now at a huge risk if it whiffs and even then both Leon and Bayman have their ground grapples to keep opponents from relying on wake up kicks forcing them to tech on knockdown too. not to mention both Bayman and Leon's special wake up OH's beat out rachels stomp when bayman's feet faces her or Leon's head faces her limiting her setups for it
 
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iHajinShinobi

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show me da receipts

All im seeing is a bunch of glorifying Rachel's tools while downplaying/ignoring Leon/Baymans tools.

And all I read was you glorifying a decent character versus a better character. Your basic knowledge of Leon (that I'm already aware of) doesn't tell me why Kasumi vs Rachel isn't 5-5.

Again, if you feel this match up isn't what it is, then feel free to explain why it is not.
 

DontForkWitMe

Well-Known Member
And all I read was you glorifying a decent character versus a better character. Your basic knowledge of Leon (that I'm already aware of) doesn't tell me why Kasumi vs Rachel isn't 5-5.

Again, if you feel this match up isn't what it is, then feel free to explain why it is not.

Rachel ain't a better character than Leon so where gonna have to agree to disagree on that subject

Everything i listed about Leon applies to all characters including kasumi. Im simply pointing out the inconsistency of having Rachel 5-5 against her then putting Leon at 6-4 against her when they share the same speed and range deficit against her but with Leon having superior cqc with actual guaranteed high damaging setups to deal with kasumi.that Rachel simply doesn't
 
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