DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

synce

Well-Known Member
Brute I think you overestimate the VF characters. If you know their movesets and what to expect they're not that great. To me playing against Pai is usually a joke, even if the player is good. They may get what feels like a hundred hits in but your health bar is still half full. A couple good hits from someone like Rachel or even just one counter from Bass will even the playing field really quick. Pai requires too much guessing to do good damage and her defense is terrible. She's far from amazing
 

Brute

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Brute I think you overestimate the VF characters. If you know their movesets and what to expect they're not that great. To me playing against Pai is usually a joke, even if the player is good. They may get what feels like a hundred hits in but your health bar is still half full. A couple good hits from someone like Rachel or even just one counter from Bass will even the playing field really quick. Pai requires too much guessing to do good damage and her defense is terrible. She's far from amazing
I find your argument uncompelling.
 

Prince Adon

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Slight re-adjustment to Kasumi's MUs.

Kasumi vs

Kasumi 5-5
Brad Wong 5-5
Mila 5-5
Helena 5-5
Kokoro 5-5
Bayman 6-4
Christie 5-5
Rig 6-4
Jann Lee 5-5
Zack 5-5
Ayane 4-6
Hayabusa 5-5
Eliot 6-4
Tina 5-5
Lisa 5-5
Akira 5-5
Alpha 6-4
Sarah 5-5
Bass 6-4
Lei Fang 5-5
Hitomi 5-5
Hayate 5-5
Momiji 5-5
Gen Fu 4-6
Pai 5-5
Jacky 5-5
Ein 6-4
Rachel 5-5
Leon 6-4
Marie Rose 5-5
 

UncleKitchener

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I've been comparing some matchups against Brad because I got a full-time really good Brad player, @Tulkas , living at my place and he tries to get maximum out of his setups, frametraps and combos. He's also really sharp and is always punishing anything slightly unsafe and fishes for holds and good at fundementals, so this guy is for real. :bradwong:

I'll start with characters I'm familiar with, before going for characters I'm starting to get into or going back to and I'm not too good at.

vs :bass:
This is a matchup I rate actually high for Bass, like a 6-4 for him. Reasons are that he can punish moves non-grapplers can't, namely things like :236::P:, :6::h::+::K: and bunch of other stuff at -5. He can also punish him if he smalls his OHs coming and Brad very much relies on setups when it comes to the OHs and once you see it coming, you takes damage. Brad also relies on his crushes a lot and things like WR kicks and most transitions into , but once those are blocked, he's in big trouble because he's really unsafe in general.

Bass is as slow as Brad (with the exception of his 12/13 frame moves from stances or BT), though he benefits from two big things, tracking with moves like :6::P: (15i) and :1::P: and frame advantage and tools to catch Brad crouching like :3::K: that help a lot in this matchup. And the most important tool in this matchup in the low OH. You have this move and you can turn the tide of the entire matchup because you can interrupt Brad even between his strings sometimes if he does commit to something where he ends up in crouching state (Full crouching K series, I'm looking at you).

Bass still has to be very patient in this matchup and at times play keep out and get in and stay in. He's usually okay outside of Brad's :6::6::K: and :h::+::K: range and he has to usually play the spacing game and constantly come in and out and play the Tom and Jerry game. Rounds in this MU can either go from the whole 99 seconds till timeout to under 10 seconds because if you play your cards right, you can do very well.

However, Brad does have ways of getting out Bass 50/50 pressure situations like when having to deal with his BT OHs after frame advantage like Ayane, because Bass' :6::6::K: and WR :P::+::K: are really good at doing that putting the opponent in that situations. Brad has really good jumping attacks and low crushes like :6::h::+::K: and :8::h::+::K:, which can almost completely eliminate the OH pressure, unless the Bass player has to resort to outer tools like using :P::K: and :4::K: which can leave him open to possibly being crushed and punished by other moves, which plays into the whole conditioning game. This goes well with those Brad gameplan I guess. Majority of it revolves around playing risky and using a lot of mixups.


vs :leon:
I put this at 5-5, but still a possible 6-5 in Leon's favor, but let me explain why I feel that way.

Leon's a special case here because he doesn't have a good fast tracking move unless you're gonna use his strings, which transition into mids quite fast like the :P::6::P: starter into the mid/low mixup. Leon's can actually play rushdown in this mathcup because of his superior speed in most situations as he has 11/13/16. He also has the essential low OH and he does above-average damage with that. His GBs work well in this matchup, because even the -1 is still advantageous for Leon in this matchup due to the speed difference.

Leon's throw speed can be a problem punishing lows however, as he's isn't a throw based character and he fits more into the bruiser/power-house type of character like Rachel. This ends up being kind of a disadvantage if he isn't taking advantage of his 2P, so that's when Leon can potentially fall short, but he's is still pretty fast for Brad.


vs :rachel:
I can't explain why, but I just feel this MU is 6-4 for Rachel. Like Leon she's solid, but she benefits from a fast low tracking move and a mid tracking string (:4::P: (16i)) and the low OH that in this case is +10 and allows for Rachel to pressure and keep in the range where she's best at, close to mid-range because outside of that, she's going to struggle getting in especially against characters who are good at keeping her out like Ayane.

With this character, sometimes the simplicity can actually be her downfall, because she ends up not having some tools she may need in other MUs, but strangely, she just does well against Brad. Now, obviously, you have to mix-up well enough for your pressure not to be mid-punch centric and again, like Leon, even her -1 GBs can be advantageous.

So, yeah, I had to keep this short, but I still ended up touching up on the character.


vs :lisa:
I put this at 5-5, but 6-4, if the Lisa knows how to use her tools well, because she can punish his unsafe moves as a throw based grappler, but she also has moves Brad has to respect like :4::h::+::K:, which can stop some of his setups really well. She also has low-crushes like :3::K: :9::K:, which can turn the tide. Her safety with her BT mixups also help a lot. Oh and she also has a very good low OH, which can give above average damage. Her throw punish is also very good with some high damage potential.

She's also good at playing the range game, though she requires a certain mindset to maximize her potential.

Now, I put this at 5-5 because despite her having a very good MU here in terms of tools and capabilities, it depends on the type of player playing this game because unlike Rachel or Leon, you can play in some many different ways, but your play style may end up biting you in the ass if you don't know how to play against this character especially because Brad requires a different way of thinking, because no matter what character you play, you can still be caught by him just laying down there and ends up parrying your 2P or catching you with his OH, or just straight up evade your high tracking moves and even some mids with :4::P::8:/:2::P:, because unlike Leon, Rachel or Bass, Lisa doesn't have a quick high-mid tracking string like those characters, unless you're committing to moves like :4::P::K: or :1::P: or :6::P::P: (still not ideal tbh).


So yeah, with the exception of the Brad-Lisa MU, I'm 100% sure about the other three. I'll go through other MUs later once I get more matches in.
 

UncleKitchener

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A MU discussion should always assume that players know how to use all of their character's tools to a degree that exceeds "well."

Yeah, what I meant to say was that certain tools, can't apply to this MU because Brad can circumvent those and find ways around them because he has some many good crushes. My bad for not being clear.

I shouldn't have written that when I'm tired. I'll get into more detail later.
 

Matt Ponton

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Tier list current standings:
Free Step Dodge:
S - Gen Fu
A - Christie, Ayane, Sarah, Kasumi, Leifang, Helena, Pai
B - Hayate, Jann Lee, Akira, Jacky, Hayabusa, Momiji, Lisa, Hitomi, Mila, Alpha 152, Bass, Bayman, Rig, Tina, Zack, Marie Rose
C - Ein, Leon, Brad, Rachel, Kokoro
D - Eliot

Event Hubs:
A - Ayane, Christie, Gen Fu, Kasumi, Sarah
B - Helena, Leifang, Hayate, Rig, Jann Lee, Mila, Momiji, Hitomi, Jacky, Zack, Pai
C - Hayabusa, Kokoro, Akira, Lisa, Tina, Alpha 152, Brad, Rachel, Marie Rose
D - Leon, Ein, Bayman, Bass
E - Eliot
 

Prince Adon

Best in the World!!!
Premium Donor
Kasumi MU update again:

Kasumi vs

Kasumi 5-5
Brad Wong 6-4
Mila 5-5
Helena 5-5
Kokoro 6-4
Bayman 6-4
Christie 5-5
Rig 6-4
Jann Lee 6-4
Zack 6-4
Ayane 4-6
Hayabusa 5-5
Eliot 6-4
Tina 5-5
Lisa 5-5
Akira 5-5
Alpha 6-4
Sarah 5-5
Bass 6-4
Lei Fang 5-5
Hitomi 5-5
Hayate 5-5
Momiji 5-5
Gen Fu 4-6
Pai 5-5
Jacky 5-5
Ein 6-4
Rachel 5-5
Leon 6-4
Marie Rose 5-5

Thanks to @Allan Paris for sharing his insights and correcting some of the Match ups.
 

DontForkWitMe

Well-Known Member
what makes rachel 5-5 vs kasumi compared to other super heavies like bayman and leon who are better than her in pretty much every category.

They both have higher damage output than her while matching her speed, bayman has far better evasive and defensive options and better OHs while leon has far better guardbreaks, chargeable string mixups, and environmental damage with a superior air grab than hers not to mention shes missing basic tools like low crushes. I don't see anything in rachels toolset that makes her kasumi matchup 5-5 while bayman/leon are 6-4 against her
 
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Matt Ponton

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what makes rachel 5-5 vs kasumi compared to other super heavies like bayman and leon who are better than her in pretty much every category.

They both have higher damage output than her while matching her speed, bayman has far better evasive and defensive options and better OHs while leon has far better guardbreaks, chargeable string mixups, and environmental damage with a superior air grab than hers not to mention shes missing basic tools like low crushes. I don't see anything in rachels toolset that makes her kasumi matchup 5-5 while bayman/leon are 6-4 against her

Not to also forget that I believe many feel Rachel suffers from many of their disadvantages as well, primarily speed. So Christie, Kasumi, Alpha, Phase 4, I believe would be at least a disadvantaged matchup
 

Brute

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I'm really questioning a lot of those Kasumi MUs. For the characters I'm familiar with, it looks all wrong.

Then again, I provide paragraphs and paragraphs of explanations for my insight on MUs, then someone comes in after me and posts one solitary number with zero explanation at all, and for some reason their "analysis" takes precedence over mine in the MU chart.

So I think I'm done trying to bring logic in here. You guys have fun.
 

Prince Adon

Best in the World!!!
Premium Donor
Hell no. That match up is 5-5.

Why?

what makes rachel 5-5 vs kasumi compared to other super heavies like bayman and leon who are better than her in pretty much every category.

They both have higher damage output than her while matching her speed, bayman has far better evasive and defensive options and better OHs while leon has far better guardbreaks, chargeable string mixups, and environmental damage with a superior air grab than hers not to mention shes missing basic tools like low crushes. I don't see anything in rachels toolset that makes her kasumi matchup 5-5 while bayman/leon are 6-4 against her

Bayman/Leon suffer with range, and neither of them takes out wake up kicks like Rachel can. She still has her stomp set up, and blender/vortex situations. Her mobility is pretty insane with her KBD and wave dashes. Only thing Bayman has that Rachel don't is the tank roll (which isn't that evasive), and Parries (which isn't close to being Gen Fu or Lei Fang status). This doesn't really tell me much, except Bayman/or Leon may have one thing they can do better than Rachel, while Rachel has like 5 things she can do better.

It'll be nice to see other players attempting to do MUs for their characters, though. There isn't really much to go off of.

I'm really questioning a lot of those Kasumi MUs. For the characters I'm familiar with, it looks all wrong.

Then again, I provide paragraphs and paragraphs of explanations for my insight on MUS, then someone comes in after me and posts one solitary number with zero explanation at all, and for some reason their "analysis" takes precedence over mine in MU chart.

So I think I'm done trying to bring logic in here. You guys have fun.

I never said my list was perfect, and I made this list with facts/theories and other things in hope other Kasumi players who actually know their MUs can help, and the only person that has so far is AP. So instead of criticizing everything, maybe you can come up with a MU list for your character(s) in attempt to do the same thing, because your non sense doesn't help anything. There are hardly any players who know this game, or compete in this game to even get everything 100%, so don't expect a list to be. You should try using some of that logic for once.
 
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iHajinShinobi

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what makes rachel 5-5 vs kasumi compared to other super heavies like bayman and leon who are better than her in pretty much every category.

They both have higher damage output than her while matching her speed, bayman has far better evasive and defensive options and better OHs while leon has far better guardbreaks, chargeable string mixups, and environmental damage with a superior air grab than hers not to mention shes missing basic tools like low crushes. I don't see anything in rachels toolset that makes her kasumi matchup 5-5 while bayman/leon are 6-4 against her

Rachel has better walk speed and superior Korean Back Dash than every other Super Heavyweight (her KBD is one of the best period). She has deeper stuns in threshold, tracking, a strong blender, and controls wake ups easily because her stomp is a solid tool. She has solid mix up in threshold, she has more buttons at range than other Super Heavyweights. And she certainly has an easier time getting her damage. Her air throw has a lot of range.

A solid Rachel hitting you is a lot scarier than a Bayman or Leon ever will be when this character has ways to keep her momentum a lot better than most.
 

Brute

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So instead of criticizing everything, maybe you can come up with a MU list for your character(s) in attempt to do the same thing, .
I already did, and I posted it in this very thread. And I discussed it for pages and pages going over different questions and insights people had about what I posted.

And, like I just got done explaining, others come in and post one MU number, no explanation attached, and the original spreadsheet is updated with that number, disregarding mine for absolutely no reason.

So, there are two reasons that could happen:

1) The most recent MU number posted takes precedence. If that's the case, discussion is pointless, as I could just say 9-1 everything and they'd update it that way.

2) Posts are weighed by the person who posted them. That is to say: if an offline major winner posts a number, it is always prioritized over someone's analysis who has not. If that's the case, I also have no interest in the discussion, for reasons that should be very obvious.
 

iHajinShinobi

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I already did. and I posted it in this very thread. And I discussed it for pages and pages going over different questions and insights people had about what I posted.

And, like I just got done explaining, others come in and post one MU number, no explanation attached, and the original spreadsheet is updated with that number, disregarding mine for absolutely no reason.

So, there are two reasons that could happen:

1) The most recent MU number posted takes precedence. If that's the case, discussion is pointless, as I could just say 9-1 everything and they'd update it that way.

2) Posts are weighed by the person who posted them. That is to say: if an offline major winner posts a number, it is always prioritized over someone's analysis who has not. If that's the case, I also have no interest in the discussion, for reasons that should be very obvious.

Solid experience > Theories that's why.
 

Brute

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Solid experience > Theories that's why.
Insightful discussion and breakdown of MUs > Lone number without any backing

Historically speaking assuming your principle would leave us in a terribly abhorrent situation today.

But this is exactly the kind of nonsense that made me declare I'm done debating it.
 

Prince Adon

Best in the World!!!
Premium Donor
Solid experience > Theories that's why.

If you want an explanation just ask. I'll explain things to you, just like I did fork or anyone else that may want to know. It's not that hard. I'm not going to waste my time posting a novel about why my MUs are what they are, when most people who are posting in this topic has hardly, to no knowledge whatsoever. My chart not only comes from me, but other Kasumi players like AP who also have explained MUs in this topic.
 
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