System DOA5U learning roadmap + links to guides & videos?

[Kohlrak]

Well if they don't have FSD accounts, how do they meet up with amd/or discuss the game other players? Its not like there are a lot of other DoA communities out there.

That's why DoA is dying so quickly. It's become pretty much an offline game with online advocates for offline, and we've got the occasional online-offline battles that get pretty heated on here. The problem is, without online and respect for it, you can't grow offline communities, because no one is going to say, "hey, you, over there, let's try out this dead or alive game and make a serious community out of it." Without an online community that can then transfer to offline, offline will die because the population can only go down, but they don't see that. However, i don't want to start another one (thought i probably just have).

Well there's an easy enough way to un-gultify yourself from that...

I'll get to it after a shower, some food, and i figure out how to edit the wiki.

Wikipedia is not known for being a good resource to get detailed information about fighting game mechanics... release dates, character info and storyline yes... but not much else... People won't click through to wikipedia to find frame data.

No, but it's good for finding "official sites."

It does a pretty good job of introducing people to the basics... at least what the options are... it does a terrible job at allowing people to really practice the skills.

I don't think it even does that. The problem is, people will get frustrated trying to just get through it all before even trying to do a match. Most will just plain abandon it, and many who take tutorial modes seriously (and many people do), will just abandon the game after that. I've felt that way alot, but just keep coming back to the fact that it really is a good game, and it deserves a real chance via a better tutorial. I would love if Team Ninja would consult me on my findings, but i won't even offer 'cause, despite how they and TK are pretty good at listening to fans, I really don't foresee them taking me seriously, nd i probably wouldn't take myself seriously if i were them, either.

I'm not finding KBD terribly useful in DoA... I had a really easy time getting it since its a simplified version of Tekken KBD... but all in all, since movement is unsafe and causes counterhits on you, unless you're already spaced out (range 4+ depending on the opponent) extra spacing is super risky.

I don't feel that way, myself. You have blocks that are easily thrown, sidestepping is really unsafe with all the tracking, so if someone's bullrushing you, it only makes sense to try to get distance, and the regular BD is worthless. Alot of characters could benefit from being able to range it out, especially if you're a noob and need some range to get room to breath and think about what just happened so you can learn from it.

Sidestepping is almost worthless... The only real use I've found for it is to step running and/or diving attacks. Since each hit in a string track, and most people attack with at least 2 hits to a string, you're going to get hit... I'd say that sidestepping is a tool useful only in very specific situations (unless you're playing Christie, in which case her stance sidestep is super useful)

Even it got nerfed.

Blocking... is just remembering to hit 5H... and to not move or attack too much... just remember that most people can't start too much of an offence if you just stand there and block...

You forget throws. I tried learning just blocking, and even the computer, as stupid as it is, knows that it can throw after tech. You need options, or you're going to get busted up, because holds get thrown, too.

Counter poking... find your fastest mid... block an attack then use it... its amazing how many people will just run into Sarah's 6P. (But that might just be a Sarah thing... with her i11 mid counter hit stun)

Yeah, but the time it takes to drop the block and strike is also something i need to work on, but there's the blocking issue as well. Being able to block is probably the best, but they need to be able to respect other options before blocking is viable. I would love to backdash or sidestep a throw, but if i try to counter throws by striking, i'll just eat another attack because they decided not to throw. That kind of stuff is what makes DoA very different from other fighters. They take down the difficulty of a ton of controls, and complicate it other areas.

Practice is learning to apply the learning. I know a few Tekken players that have a ton of knowledge, but don't know how to apply it well.

Right, but learning is important, too. Really, there is alot of tiers of practice as well. I need to be ble to apply a tactic consistently against a non-resisting foe before i can try it to one who resists me (which is another downfall of the tutorial mode). I know some people with knowledge who have knowledge, but for one reason or another can't help me. I could easily help people practice technique, but i hve to know it myself, first. And for dead or alive, at the point that it's at, that means we need to start not being afrid of online, because if that's the best that we got, we gotta use it. I've spent alot of time learning how people learn and become proficient in games, foriegn languages, and various other topics, but it's of no use to the community, right now.

It would be better received if it was expected for players to know it.

It's important, but it's expected that players half-know it. From what i've seen, even the better players are still learning their mains from the frame data. However, the distance from the bottom tier players allows for that not to be a major issue.

TBH, the best way for someone to learn, is to get a certain proficiency as quickly as humanly possible. You don't need a whole skillset, you don't even need a whole character, but you need enough skill to get your foot in the door. This is why languages teach phrases to start off, because you then have some simple phrases to plug and play with various words so you can start using the language and thinking in the language (while abandoning your own). Next you can start modifying how you do different things (how articles work, particles work, etc, so that you can start playing with new verbs), then you can learn other specifics (all forms of the verbs), etc. You can't learn all your options to start, or you will be overwelmed. You need to get the basic ply level, which, for most people in DoA, is mashing. This is why mashing is such problem in DoA (it's not being taught, but it's what's natural to people the way DoA is right now). You need to be able to get to the point where you can play, then worry about mixing things up by using advanced techniques. This, however, is not how DoA is being taught.

After some talking with Tenryuga, the roadmap to this point looks like learning how to avoid everything, then countering, which is the opposite of what is going on right now. You need to learn how to keep alive until the match times out, not necessarily win. I've talked to people about other games as well, and it seems to be the same thing. In real life, that's how it works. It's better to walk away than chance your paycheck on the lottery. We need to start seeing this as the first step. Tutorials need to be written to get us there, because you can win matches playing like that.

EDIT: To elaborate, in language learning classes, this would be equivalent to being able to say "i am X." I can then learn to play around in the language by saying I am Kohlrk, I am a programmer, I am smart, I am sleepy, I am hot, I am cold, I am thirsty. You can accomplish alot of idea spreading just saying "I am X."

 

[Matt Ponton]

Well if they don't have FSD accounts, how do they meet up with amd/or discuss the game other players? Its not like there are a lot of other DoA communities out there.

As I said, they're on Facebook. They're part of the various DOA Groups on there.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

My particular criticism is "information overload." Most people are not willing to invest 2 hours in one of many methods to improve themselves at a game they are otherwise mashing. This is not a programming course, there's no reason to spend over an hour on a game that takes only that long just to beat the single player on, if that. The in game tutorial is guilty and this kind of stuff, too. You need stages.

The whole point of the video series is to teach any player from scratch.
And the info evolves as you evolve with the video series.

Saying some1 wants to improve but doesnt want to invest time is extremely contradictory.

It is not a series that is meant to be taken in as a whole. U learn something, implement it and go back to learn sum more.

It is also a reference guide to all the applicable mechanics at the time, 95% of which us still applicable in 5U. (Missing bounds, and powerlaunchers)

Plus i really dont see how more basic you can go than p=punch k=kick and h=guard

 

[Kohlrak]

The whole point of the video series is to teach any player from scratch.
And the info evolves as you evolve with the video series.

Saying some1 wants to improve but doesnt want to invest time is extremely contradictory.

It is not a series that is meant to be taken in as a whole. U learn something, implement it and go back to learn sum more.

It is also a reference guide to all the applicable mechanics at the time, 95% of which us still applicable in 5U. (Missing bounds, and powerlaunchers)

Plus i really dont see how more basic you can go than p=punch k=kick and h=guard

You implement topics entirely, so if they take your tutorial, they learn how to move while mashing. Guarding isn't simple, because right off the bat they have no reason to guard, because they know they can get thrown. They don't know that early what to do with the guard, so, to the average shmuck who's never played, guarding is to make time to think. Then they get owned by the computer on easy. Try taking a friend of yours and teach him the game from scratch, you'll see the problems that you run into.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

You implement topics entirely, so if they take your tutorial, they learn how to move while mashing. Guarding isn't simple, because right off the bat they have no reason to guard, because they know they can get thrown. They don't know that early what to do with the guard, so, to the average shmuck who's never played, guarding is to make time to think. Then they get owned by the computer on easy. Try taking a friend of yours and teach him the game from scratch, you'll see the problems that you run into.

You cannot be more incorrect.

You are referring to a casual gamer .. or a clueless gamer for which this series is not aimed at. Those types of players don't want to learn in the first place and will not go searching for the videos.

However, for a casual that wishes to get better or an average player trying to find that element he/she is missing .. the series works and has worked great. People go back and forth to them. stop the vid, pick up where they left off. etc.. I In fact I have been told by almost every beginner and pro alike that has seen the series as it evolved that the series was very lightweight and easy to take in and follow, which contradicts everything you've been saying. As I said before, it also serves as a game reference. In a reference you HAVE TO cover topics entirely, otherwise its not that good of a reference.

Another thing that needs to be pointed out is that there no single magic video that will instantly make you a good player. This comes with practice and more importantly the will to get better. There is no video that will teach you how not to lose. If somebody really wants to get better, they have to lose and lose and lose some more until they reach a tipping point in their training where they DO implement what needs to be done properly then start winning.

As for guarding, it is essential and this is why it is mentioned in the first vid, and touched on again in the 2nd. Saying people have no reason to guard off the bat is just ignorant. It is a well known fact that in order to get better at any fighter, not just DOA, you need good defense before you can implement good offense. This also applies to character specific learning when picking up a new character. The way the series is constructed was to show you what you can do first. and then how to implement it in the later videos when talking about stuns, combo construction and environmentals.

The only thing I regret about the series is that I didn't put the "understanding frame data" section from vid 2 into a seperate video. I will admit that was way too much to take in. However, for beginner players coming from other fighters it was also essential. so what happened in that specific video is that beginners that thought it was too much stopped in the middle of the last section of strikes and people that thought it was useful kept on going. You can even see it in the comments of the video. Apart from that one section, I think the video series flowed very smoothly and took you step by step to understand the game inside out.

 

[Kohlrak]

You cannot be more incorrect.

You are referring to a casual gamer .. or a clueless gamer for which this series is not aimed at. Those types of players don't want to learn in the first place and will not go searching for the videos.

There's no incentive for anyone else to learn this game. Instead, you get people like me who want to share the game, so we share the videos. They usually start watching, until they realize it's 2 hours long and they're already forgetting everything. Justifying short-commings by saying that you refuse to cater to casuals is exactly the kind of attitude why this game is dying.

However, for a casual that wishes to get better or an average player trying to find that element he/she is missing .. the series works and has worked great. People go back and forth to them. stop the vid, pick up where they left off. etc.. I In fact I have been told by almost every beginner and pro alike that has seen the series as it evolved that the series was very lightweight and easy to take in and follow, which contradicts everything you've been saying. As I said before, it also serves as a game reference. In a reference you HAVE TO cover topics entirely, otherwise its not that good of a reference.

The problem isn't taking in, it's retention. You need people with some basics before they will ever be able to use this. Though, if it's a reference, then it is not a tutorial, and we then still need a tutorial.

Another thing that needs to be pointed out is that there no single magic video that will instantly make you a good player. This comes with practice and more importantly the will to get better. There is no video that will teach you how not to lose. If somebody really wants to get better, they have to lose and lose and lose some more until they reach a tipping point in their training where they DO implement what needs to be done properly then start winning.

No, but the information isn't there in a form that presents the information efficiently, so it's difficult for anyone to practice to become good, because they don't know what to practice without being a non-casual, thus a hardcore DoA player. If you're going on the notion that the only ones who should even try getting into the game are hardcore players, you'll find they'll be going to games where there are better resources, which is pretty much what is happening.

As for guarding, it is essential and this is why it is mentioned in the first vid, and touched on again in the 2nd. Saying people have no reason to guard off the bat is just ignorant. It is a well known fact that in order to get better at any fighter, not just DOA, you need good defense before you can implement good offense. This also applies to character specific learning when picking up a new character. The way the series is constructed was to show you what you can do first. and then how to implement it in the later videos when talking about stuns, combo construction and environmentals.

Well known to people who regularly play fighters. The people who need tutorials and videos the most are not people who regularly play fighters. You need to know what to do with block, and how to deal with people who aren't letting you block. In DoA, you start off getting bullied, and you need something to do about that so you can get the time to practice new skills. Most people do this by mashing, as mashing makes more sense in this gme than it does in any other game to a complete noob. Why? Throws. The triangle is what makes this game great, but it's also a crutch that results in requiring some of the metagame being explained right off the bat. I followed your videos, nd when i blocked to make things stop i got thrown. You know what my response, and the response if anyone who hasn't played a fighter competitively before is? Mash. And anyone who has played a fighter competitively before is more likely to dedicate themselves to that game than DoA. If this community wants new people, it needs to stop shoving them away.

The only thing I regret about the series is that I didn't put the "understanding frame data" section from vid 2 into a seperate video. I will admit that was way too much to take in. However, for beginner players coming from other fighters it was also essential. so what happened in that specific video is that beginners that thought it was too much stopped in the middle of the last section of strikes and people that thought it was useful kept on going. You can even see it in the comments of the video. Apart from that one section, I think the video series flowed very smoothly and took you step by step to understand the game inside out.

It did. It a accomplished that, but as you say, it's more of a reference than a tutorial. A dictionary is a reference, you don't tell someone to read a dictionary to learn english. They'll take some words, and never remember the rest. It doesn't matter how slowly they're presented. If you feel otherwise, i challenge you to learn a language that way, as i'm sure it'd be very useful to you. As a reference, it's excellent.

 

[StrikerSashi]

The people who won't work to learn a game aren't gonna be competitive anyways. At this point, it's better to steal people from fighting game communities than to try to build up casual players in terms of getting tourney numbers.

 

[Tenryuga]

The way I see it there are three kinds of players when learning a game.

Type 1 : Is reading up the forums and sees terms like "option selects" that they are unfamiliar with. If no definition is provided they will ask someone about it or search for it themself immediately then get right back to whatever it was they were reasearching.

Type 2: They will see the terms on the forums all over the place but never actually ask any questions or talk about anything out of fear of looking "stupid" and being wrong. Or they might simply just not care to which in turn can make their knowledge of things somewhat one sided and incomplete depending on how competent their level of comprehension is on the material.

Type 3: They will see the terms and deem the information useless since they do not understand it and will not make any effort to understand it.

A person that is mostly type 3 will have the most difficulty actually learning any game because they are not doing any active learning aside from simply playing it. This is the same as watching videos of high level play and trying to emulating the tactics high level players use or watching a combo video and practicing those combos without having the basic theory down. There is no phase of understanding the material and the player is too lazy to try to understand the material. This kind of mentality is harmful to growth as a competetive player.

Type 2 players will usually mess up somewhere down the line during their growth and learning and not recognize it because they are not consulting with anyone. Sometimes they will actually end up with great understanding of the material however these players are usually the ones that aren't good at teaching it to others despite having a high level of proficiency in the game because their understanding of it may not be complete or refined.

Type 1 players are usually the ones always asking the 5Ws and "how". Its not uncommon to find a type 1 player who is lacking in the skills department but can explain game mechanics better to you than players of higher skill level and even point out inconsistensies in your playing style. These players have it easier learning the game because they ask questions attempt to understand completely what it is they are presented and most importantly are able to provide answers even if they may choose not to.

I think in terms of DOA the problem when it comes to learning is that most players are type 2 and 3. So they will either be ignorant of the game, have somewhat of an understanding of it or have great understanding but not really be able to assist others who want to reach the same level.

The end result is that since few players are competent at teaching the game, the base of type 2s and 3s grows larger and almost everyone is still left with the question of "How do I get better!?" since few have a qualification to teach and fewer have a desire to learn from someone or at least test their understanding of the game.

 

[Kohlrak]

i want to say that there's another type, one i would throw myself in, but that would be a little conceited. That said, i've met alot of 2s here with good intentions. I don't think i've met a 1, or at least, a 1 that understands teaching. Working on becoming one though (waiting for response, actually, but i'm gonna start blowing someone's phone up soon).

 

[Awesmic]

i want to say that there's another type, one i would throw myself in, but that would be a little conceited.

It ain't conceited if other people can relate with that type of player, whatever it is.

For all you know, I could be that type of player. Spill your guts anyway.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I'm not finding KBD terribly useful in DoA... I had a really easy time getting it since its a simplified version of Tekken KBD... but all in all, since movement is unsafe and causes counterhits on you, unless you're already spaced out (range 4+ depending on the opponent) extra spacing is super risky.

Korean Back Dashing and movement in general (both generic and character specific) are very useful in this game. So is spacing and footsies. The movement is not "unsafe" unless you backdash generically while moving backward, that is how you will be counter hit. Inputting 7 (1P side, 9 on 2P side) allows you to block while moving back diagonally. You can even input 7 then 4 to block the same way, only while moving back.

Sidestepping is almost worthless... The only real use I've found for it is to step running and/or diving attacks. Since each hit in a string track, and most people attack with at least 2 hits to a string, you're going to get hit... I'd say that sidestepping is a tool useful only in very specific situations (unless you're playing Christie, in which case her stance sidestep is super useful)

The side step is certainly not worthless. It is designed to simply step a single strike and that requires precision. You are not going to side step out of harm's way for free just because you side stepped. If a string is linear within', then you must have your side steps well-timed to avoid strikes. And some strings will retrack because of how fast a follow strike actually is mid-string.

The side step system has many applications in the neutral. In order to get the most of it, requires one to know the strike(s) and strings they are trying to side step. That includes knowing whether a follow up is linear and if something has that much delay as well.

Blocking... is just remembering to hit 5H... and to not move or attack too much... just remember that most people can't start too much of an offence if you just stand there and block...

You can definitely move back while blocking. As I mentioned earlier, on the 1P side, you can hold 7 to move back while blocking high/mid strikes. And hold 9 on the 2P side to do the same thing.

Counter poking... find your fastest mid... block an attack then use it... its amazing how many people will just run into Sarah's 6P. (But that might just be a Sarah thing... with her i11 mid counter hit stun)

Not everyone that plays a game will know what the opposing player's character strike speed is. Even their own character. Because not everyone will actually look at frame data, while some of us actually do.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Also, I made this thread in the Matchmaking section for people that may want someone to turn to for characters and the game in general if they needed it. As I'm almost certain it gets overlooked.