ryu_highabusa
Well-Known Member
Your argument is that the general FGC didn't care about the DOA5 competitive scene so you're praising... DOA4? Am I understanding correctly? My head hurts.
Some gameplay issues with DOA6?
- Thread starter CounterTerrorist
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CounterTerrorist
Member
I think my argument is the most amount of people I'd ever seen tune into a Twitch DOA5 tournament was like 200. General population didn't care, not just "FGC".
If thats hurts your feelings as someone who cared about DOA5 well, I really don't know what to say. I wasn't involved in the game's development so its not my place to be held accountable for the faults of game design there. DOA4 getting criticisms from outsiders in the FGC should stand for something when DOA5 was being completely ignored by the same folks.
Really couldn't imagine that those outsiders weren't just jealous of how popular DOA4 suddenly became that it was at EVO and WGC and just everywhere. Seems like they piped down quite a bit once they caught on that DOA5 was fundamentally unviable as a competitive game. No more reason to be jealous huh.
If thats hurts your feelings as someone who cared about DOA5 well, I really don't know what to say. I wasn't involved in the game's development so its not my place to be held accountable for the faults of game design there. DOA4 getting criticisms from outsiders in the FGC should stand for something when DOA5 was being completely ignored by the same folks.
Really couldn't imagine that those outsiders weren't just jealous of how popular DOA4 suddenly became that it was at EVO and WGC and just everywhere. Seems like they piped down quite a bit once they caught on that DOA5 was fundamentally unviable as a competitive game. No more reason to be jealous huh.
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Even Japan wanted sidesteps for DOA lol. Sidesteps is one of the most basic portions to have in a 3D fighter. I get that DOA wants to be it's own thing but it has to keep up with the times for the more classic punishment for stepping an opponent. It's a 3D fighter so it looks extremely weird on not having one.
There are moments where one should be glad SS is in due to providing more situations on match outcomes. If someone tosses a move on block that leaves him +3 you are provided with this limited defensive portion for not having a step system where you'd have no choice but to either respect it, or read it for the hold (which is a read if it's slow, or a simplified prediction/guess if it has a really fast startup). However if you SS that particular move it leaves them -19, which is a free stun from your end depending on how fast it is, or a free throw depending on the recovery of the move that was tossed in there. It can condition someone to start using tracking moves/throws more which creates this situation of seeing more moves out of the open than the standard go-to's. If someone steps a lot he'll get punished for it and conditions them to block more often, thus having the chance to toss in your advantage moves often or even throw them for just sitting there thinking you'll toss a tracking moves due to most trackings being unsafe in the game. There is an immense ballgame here for the brain that gives people the goosebumps due to how deep that is.
As for the SSA in DOA6, who knows how that'll be since people are willing to give it a shot. I'm going to give the game a shot even if it ends up as abysmal.
There are moments where one should be glad SS is in due to providing more situations on match outcomes. If someone tosses a move on block that leaves him +3 you are provided with this limited defensive portion for not having a step system where you'd have no choice but to either respect it, or read it for the hold (which is a read if it's slow, or a simplified prediction/guess if it has a really fast startup). However if you SS that particular move it leaves them -19, which is a free stun from your end depending on how fast it is, or a free throw depending on the recovery of the move that was tossed in there. It can condition someone to start using tracking moves/throws more which creates this situation of seeing more moves out of the open than the standard go-to's. If someone steps a lot he'll get punished for it and conditions them to block more often, thus having the chance to toss in your advantage moves often or even throw them for just sitting there thinking you'll toss a tracking moves due to most trackings being unsafe in the game. There is an immense ballgame here for the brain that gives people the goosebumps due to how deep that is.
As for the SSA in DOA6, who knows how that'll be since people are willing to give it a shot. I'm going to give the game a shot even if it ends up as abysmal.
CounterTerrorist
Member
Universal sidestep mechanics ruin the basics of DOA though. It doesn't matter who thinks they belong in DOA or not, the mechanic just doesn't mesh with the way DOA is designed, at least not in the way its been implemented alongside other gameplay changes in both DOA5 & DOA6.
All the changes in DOA5 essentially meant that sidestep attacks were an easier and safer method of counter attacking than holds were, just flat out. They're a lot harder to throw than holds as well. They only seem to be getting buffed in DOA6 too.
If DOA didn't have universal holds then sure, yeah, it would totally make sense to have universal sidestep attacks. You can't just be forced to guard against every strike if you don't want to get hit by it. DOA does have holds though, and the triangle system of Holds beat Strikes beat Throws beat Holds being this very balanced governing ruleset of DOA just went to shit with DOA5 by giving solidly good reasons to be more encouraged to do something else than frequently rely on holds. Fewer hold situations are fewer throw situations and the gameplay gets reduced from three intelligible aspects of fighting to only the single aspect of strikes and worrying more about strike priority and strike distance and heres three new strike techniques and heres your free sidestep strike with more utility than holds... like straight up, DOA5's entry barrier and skill ceiling together went down by like 40 IQ points.
The meta of a sidestep dodge maneuver is simply a 1-in-2. The move you're trying to dodge is either tracking or it isn't. The meta of hold maneuvers is much more elaborate and a 1-in-4 to 1-in-6 depending on the character. Its not just i dodged or i didnt on a true 50/50, its you either know how to actually use each hold against identified attacks or you leave yourself open to excessive punishment by whiffing.
Sidestepping is seriously a safer, more newbie friendly mechanic than holding and ends up trumping hold utility. The only way sidestepping ought to work in DOA is making it's damage utility worse than holds. You're cutting out the effort of knowing which 1-of-4 holds to utilize with 3 different strengths in timing and a huge punish window for whiffing, to instead using a 50/50 timing independant smaller punish opportunity sidestep; so there has to be a tradeoff there that actually makes sense. Holds just cant be harder and more unsafe to use AND ALSO deal shit damage or else why the fuck ever prioritize using them? DOA5 would have been at least 50% better if they didn't universally reduce hold damage by 20% compared to DOA4. It wasn't an intelligent decision to nerf holds like that, at all.
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I suppose you are the pioneer of how the system should work? lol. You might possibly be the 1% of the minority who actually thinks DOA doesn't need one so i'm quite surprised. Let's be real here, "you" can't make that outcome.
It -seems- more of a nerf compared to the previous one (from the looks of it on the assumption that this new SS leaves you superbly unsafe), but only time will tell seeing as Zack evaded Helena's 6PK with this new SS, which means that there is hope for evading moves that realign/retrack at the cost of making some type of read.
Pretty sure the IQ intelligence reduction is the other way around (For DOA5 that is, with a natural SS at least that possibly could of had some improvements but was still really useful for the game), A lot of people improved on the game extremely well when it was used. As for DOA6, we have to touch the game first before coming up with a conclusion.
This dude said a SS mechanic is for newbs.
Son, this thread had me rolling.
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CounterTerrorist
Member
Close hit Sidesteps in the early DOA6 footage deal 1/3rd of the lifebar even before combo potential followup if it splats into a dangerzone or wallbounce. This is as much damage as the damned Break Blow sabaki that requires a full meter to use.
Your post was entirely dumb.
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Raansu
Well-Known Member
@DestructionBomb
Just ignore the guy. I stopped taking him seriously when he said doa4 was perfection. There's no point continuing the conversation with him.
Just ignore the guy. I stopped taking him seriously when he said doa4 was perfection. There's no point continuing the conversation with him.
CounterTerrorist
Member
Whattya gonna do, e-gang up on me?
Well he has to get good then, because in DOA5 you -will- take this step attack against those cancelled mid string moves in their typical disadvantage in hopes that they'll score something from them being negative on block lol. Hopefully we don't succumb to that on getting it removed. He might as well stay in DOA4 then which was a terrible mistake unfortunately.
He came out of nowhere thinking he pioneered the series lol.
He came out of nowhere thinking he pioneered the series lol.
CounterTerrorist
Member
Raansu
Well-Known Member
No, simply just not going to continue the argument over doa4. An argument of which is probably older than you on why doa4 was not a good game competitively. Was it a fun game? Sure. Was it good at a competitive level? No, and you will be hard pressed to find anyone who would agree it was. The reasons why it was a bad game have been stated a million times over and its just an argument I'm not interested in anymore. If DoA6 devolves back into DoA4.....well then so be it. That will be TN's decision and TN's mistake to make and I wont play the game, and I can say with extreme certainty that most of the community here will abandon it competitively as well. It will probably do fine for casual online play as we are all fans of doa, but the tournament scene will devolve back to how it was in doa4 with barely 8-10 people showing up.
ryu_highabusa
Well-Known Member
If DOA5 had 200 viewers, then DOA4 had maybe 5 at most. That's my point.
In what universe was DOA4 ever popular? Who was ever jealous of DOA4? When was DOA4 "everywhere"? What are you talking about? All fabrications. None of that was ever true. You are completely delusional. No offense. That's just the plain, honest truth. Not one statement you just made in that post is based at all in reality. I have no idea what you are talking about and neither does anyone else.
Like, are you trolling? This is almost certainly bait, I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to it.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
It was never popular per se, but DoA4 came out in a weird time when fighters were in a bit of a drought so it somehow got premiered on that CGS league that aired on DirectTV and it had a short stint in WGC. Granted both of these were pretty controversial events and things that I'm just not going to get into here and I'm pretty sure DoA4 was at EVO just so the organizers could make fun of us. Perfect Legend still gets shit for being the DoA4 EVO champion and he's legit good at other recognized competitive games.
And yes, I agree with you that I think he's somewhat trolling at this point.
Radiance
Well-Known Member
Just not feeling these new mechanics.. Build up meter and get a free get out of jail free counter, do a guaranteed unbreakable combo that looks like a QTE and does 40% damage....
Can we just get a game with solid neutral where players have to earn their damage and reasonable mechanics? Hopefully by winter we'll get a close to finish build where mechanics have been tested more and tweaked so I can make a decision on getting it or not..
Can we just get a game with solid neutral where players have to earn their damage and reasonable mechanics? Hopefully by winter we'll get a close to finish build where mechanics have been tested more and tweaked so I can make a decision on getting it or not..
CounterTerrorist
Member
Raansu beat me to it but DOA4 tournaments were on international television in the precursor to e-sports prior to gaming streaming services like Twitch even existing.
Raansu sells it short by saying it was "controversial", but DOA4 was even a mainstage event at Evo one year prior to Evo becoming a shitshow of marketing pandering where literal garbage trash like Injustice shows up.
Edit: edit
The history revisionist bullshit is seriously irrelevent here. Ya'll can cry about DOA4 all you want but it was a great game, and regardless if you accept it or not doesn't change the fact; so really, complain more since that's all you seem capable of doing.
I'm not sitting by and giving DOA6 any positive attention until it can prove to not be a fucking mess like DOA5 was. The absolute last thing that any real DOA fan wants is another worthless turd like DOA5.
It's gonna be what, 7 years between DOA5 and DOA6? What extant DOA fan is honestly gonna give a shit in 7 more years if DOA6 ends up like 5 did? The franchise and its fanbase will all be gone.
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Raansu
Well-Known Member
*sigh* I don't know why I'm responding to this.
CGS barely lasted a year. It was controversial because it wasn't a real tournament. It was a clique group of players that got invited privately and several were questionable picks at best and a few others were straight up not good at the game. There was nothing legitimate about CGS. The majority of the top players were never a participant in CGS.
DoA4 was not a main stage event. EVO staff didn't even want the game there. It was basically a third party sponsorship that got the game there. It also never went back because, well for one EVO didn't want the game there, and two the turnout for it was extremely low for an EVO event when other games were bringing in 100's of participants.
What fact? There is not a single fact that backs up that doa4 was a good competitive game. It was a shallow game with every single mechanic from doa2 and 3 stripped out of it and gave you an escape out of every situation, and not only did they strip all the tools out they increased the stun threshold which increased the amount of guessing in the game. There was no reward for playing well in that game. Half the game was luck. If you consider that a great game competitively, well I dunno what to tell you., because great is something doa4 never was.
How was it a mess? It wasn't perfect by any means, but it was closer to a DoA game than DoA4 ever was. It returned mechanics from DoA2 and DoA3 that were stripped from DoA4. Unfortunately it kept DoA4's stun mechanics, but DoA5 was still an overall improvement on the series. It really seems to me like you want no depth in your games and just want to be able to get out of any situation even if you were in that situation from your own mistakes. Seems to me that because DoA5 allows proper punishment for mistakes that you just don't like that. That's fine if you don't like that, but it doesn't make DoA4 a better game competitively and you'll always be in the minority in that thought process.
Well considering 6 years later DoA5 still has a healthy tournament scene and a healthy online scene where as DoA4 even 4 years in was already dead online and the tournaments were lucky to see 10 people show up? I don't think anyone is going to miss you if DoA6 focuses on what made DoA5 a solid competitive fighter. We'll be fine without you.
CGS barely lasted a year. It was controversial because it wasn't a real tournament. It was a clique group of players that got invited privately and several were questionable picks at best and a few others were straight up not good at the game. There was nothing legitimate about CGS. The majority of the top players were never a participant in CGS.
DoA4 was not a main stage event. EVO staff didn't even want the game there. It was basically a third party sponsorship that got the game there. It also never went back because, well for one EVO didn't want the game there, and two the turnout for it was extremely low for an EVO event when other games were bringing in 100's of participants.
What fact? There is not a single fact that backs up that doa4 was a good competitive game. It was a shallow game with every single mechanic from doa2 and 3 stripped out of it and gave you an escape out of every situation, and not only did they strip all the tools out they increased the stun threshold which increased the amount of guessing in the game. There was no reward for playing well in that game. Half the game was luck. If you consider that a great game competitively, well I dunno what to tell you., because great is something doa4 never was.
How was it a mess? It wasn't perfect by any means, but it was closer to a DoA game than DoA4 ever was. It returned mechanics from DoA2 and DoA3 that were stripped from DoA4. Unfortunately it kept DoA4's stun mechanics, but DoA5 was still an overall improvement on the series. It really seems to me like you want no depth in your games and just want to be able to get out of any situation even if you were in that situation from your own mistakes. Seems to me that because DoA5 allows proper punishment for mistakes that you just don't like that. That's fine if you don't like that, but it doesn't make DoA4 a better game competitively and you'll always be in the minority in that thought process.
Well considering 6 years later DoA5 still has a healthy tournament scene and a healthy online scene where as DoA4 even 4 years in was already dead online and the tournaments were lucky to see 10 people show up? I don't think anyone is going to miss you if DoA6 focuses on what made DoA5 a solid competitive fighter. We'll be fine without you.
JAG THE GEMINI
Active Member
Yes DOA4 was, for some strange reason a game diplayed as a esports messia, despite being a real MESS of a DOA game esp. compared to DOA3!
With that said, I do not "feel" the new DOA6 mechanics either and did also not like DOA5
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Simple really. DoA4 came out in a time when fighting games were basically dead and DoA4 was flashy looking. SF4 didn't even pop up until almost 3 years later when the fighting game scene started to revitalize.
CounterTerrorist
Member
Better change your account name to gaslighter then. You are really behaving in an idiotic way for a 22 year old.
DOA4 was the hottest thing in its time. You were only 12 years old when this was all happening.
Ye, fuck off. You are just a shitter doing everything in his might to excuse your own dysfunctional pisspoor gameplay by slandering the respectable history of DOA4.
Given Shimbori is trying to target this scene once again, the high profile tourney scene, I don't think I'll be the one crying, dude.