Why do so many people dislike the VF cast?
- Thread starter Calintzsan
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Argentus
Well-Known Member
O no u di int.I thoroughly enjoy them. And because of them I grabbed some VF games, which was a great move. I feel like their inclusion was super successful as homage and to promote VF to DOA players (and possibly the reverse). I new of the VF/DOA relationship but I never wanted to play VF due to the "technical" shadow it has. But after playing with Akira and Pai in 5 vanilla, I was sold.
And they're way better guests than the Spartan
I miss my huge tank of a power striker, and that's a character style DOA is now lacking
(not a halo fan, honestly just loved her play style and persona)I still wish to holy hell theyd just ditch the armor and bring her back as a DOA original. 7'2" Filipino girl that hits like a freight train? Hell yes. Well technically 6'8 without armor.
Anyways on vf. Like I said before, my main issue isn't that they are hard to fight, but that their different style of movement leads to a contrast akin to
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RogerRabbitEffect
Yeah see that's what I'm talking about.
The systems clash because like there, Helena has a hard time getting out Doa's fluid, arcing movements because of the VF jerky, quick twitch movements that Akira has.
Even doas faster pokers like Christie and Zack move to a much smoother rhythm than VFs almost sprite speed attacks.
But I'm starting to think that that there simply wasn't a way to really adapt vf to DOA without losing the vf fans which is why they have to still move like that.
Feeling like a kindergarden teacher, but that is totally alright. It's not everyday where you have the chance to hold someone's hands on simplistic explanations:
*There is no clash of a system. They didn't add Ryu from SF into the game.
*Akira is using DOA movement and has a slightly slower walkspeed than his VF counterpart because the layers of the game is different. The Akira you see here is a DOA Akira, not a true VF Akira. Team Ninja received the rights to use/add and start off an Akira from scratch with the moveset acquired by SEGA.
*What you "think" isn't a definite answer since it's not even correct. Just remember that what you said is an opinion and not a real true answer.
*The twitchy movements is the Backdash known as KBD (In DOA standards since KBD derives from another game.) Let me also remind you that your character Mila has one of the really good KBD in the game which she can also be considered twitchy if she was played in the right hands. Even Momiji can be twitchy. You cannot determine visual realistic and cosmetic things when it's not even different. If they were brought "Exactly" as how they are in VF, I would of agreed with you..but that is impossible since they were made by DOA scratch.
*There is no clash of a system. They didn't add Ryu from SF into the game.
*Akira is using DOA movement and has a slightly slower walkspeed than his VF counterpart because the layers of the game is different. The Akira you see here is a DOA Akira, not a true VF Akira. Team Ninja received the rights to use/add and start off an Akira from scratch with the moveset acquired by SEGA.
*What you "think" isn't a definite answer since it's not even correct. Just remember that what you said is an opinion and not a real true answer.
*The twitchy movements is the Backdash known as KBD (In DOA standards since KBD derives from another game.) Let me also remind you that your character Mila has one of the really good KBD in the game which she can also be considered twitchy if she was played in the right hands. Even Momiji can be twitchy. You cannot determine visual realistic and cosmetic things when it's not even different. If they were brought "Exactly" as how they are in VF, I would of agreed with you..but that is impossible since they were made by DOA scratch.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
No the twitchy movements are their entire range of animations not just backdashing. The issue is you aren't looking at the big picture, only small details but not how they fit together.
The vf characters DO NOT move in the same manner as the DOA characters.
Just because you like to argue doesn't suddenly make it untrue. Its something you can see at even a casual glance.
The vfs simply aren't as fluid as DOA characters overall, and that makes for a clash of aesthetics. Their movements are MUCH more sudden, for example, with no lead in. There's no 'windup' to their moves, if you can understand it that way. Yes theres some individual exceptions, but overall, it holds true. The equivalent would be if say, Christies pokes didn't usually have recoil after, didn't usually arc and slide, or were automatic, but if instead she could stay stationary but simply jab instantly at any given height with no other attached animations, like if only her arms moved but her whole body didn't lean into it like she does.. If Leon didn't have to actually pull his arm back first before swinging for Arm Grenade, or didn't duck down before his rising arm cross attack. If Mila didn't have to step in before her knee lift, instead instantly raising her knee at the same speed. If Ryu didnt lean back before lunging. Or to be specific to this video, if Helena simply "popped" up for attacks instead if having to actually rise and lower for her moves. Vfs don't "lean into" their attacks like DOAs do. Like Akiras low jab. He doesn't twist his entire body for it, not to the extent that DOA jabs do. Just his arm suddenly pops out and back in again. Like even milas low jab shows her actually lunging into it, not just her arm moving on its own like its not attached to her body.
With VF its like they don't have to account for momentum with their attacks, at least in comparison to DOA fighting styles. THATS what I mean by sprite speed. I'm comparing it to games like mvc3 and sf4 where it looks awkward making full 3d models with visible weight move far faster amd jerkier than they should.
Id say Pai is closest to actually moving like DOA however. And on their own they are fine as individual characters. Its only when put alongside a DOA character that the contrast really shows.
The only DOA character that can move kinda like a vf, id say, is Zack. Unless they directly involve spinning, a lot of his move set also has that odd "no momentum or recoil" property. I honestly can't think of any other DOA that moves like that, at least not off the top of my head.
The vf characters DO NOT move in the same manner as the DOA characters.
Just because you like to argue doesn't suddenly make it untrue. Its something you can see at even a casual glance.
The vfs simply aren't as fluid as DOA characters overall, and that makes for a clash of aesthetics. Their movements are MUCH more sudden, for example, with no lead in. There's no 'windup' to their moves, if you can understand it that way. Yes theres some individual exceptions, but overall, it holds true. The equivalent would be if say, Christies pokes didn't usually have recoil after, didn't usually arc and slide, or were automatic, but if instead she could stay stationary but simply jab instantly at any given height with no other attached animations, like if only her arms moved but her whole body didn't lean into it like she does.. If Leon didn't have to actually pull his arm back first before swinging for Arm Grenade, or didn't duck down before his rising arm cross attack. If Mila didn't have to step in before her knee lift, instead instantly raising her knee at the same speed. If Ryu didnt lean back before lunging. Or to be specific to this video, if Helena simply "popped" up for attacks instead if having to actually rise and lower for her moves. Vfs don't "lean into" their attacks like DOAs do. Like Akiras low jab. He doesn't twist his entire body for it, not to the extent that DOA jabs do. Just his arm suddenly pops out and back in again. Like even milas low jab shows her actually lunging into it, not just her arm moving on its own like its not attached to her body.
With VF its like they don't have to account for momentum with their attacks, at least in comparison to DOA fighting styles. THATS what I mean by sprite speed. I'm comparing it to games like mvc3 and sf4 where it looks awkward making full 3d models with visible weight move far faster amd jerkier than they should.
Id say Pai is closest to actually moving like DOA however. And on their own they are fine as individual characters. Its only when put alongside a DOA character that the contrast really shows.
The only DOA character that can move kinda like a vf, id say, is Zack. Unless they directly involve spinning, a lot of his move set also has that odd "no momentum or recoil" property. I honestly can't think of any other DOA that moves like that, at least not off the top of my head.
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Again, the VF characters still move like DOA characters because your eyes simply shows false images as if you are looking at an oasis in a desert, they are redone by scratch. All 4 of them are have a DOA model. They fell into the Lazarus DOA pool and came out in high texture and motion of DOA. They are temporary DOA characters until SEGA gives the boot and plane ticket. The issue with you Argentus is that none of it is correct, you simply throw base statements to gain a sort of silly response into deeming it correct when it's not. Reasons like these are why people find it hard to take you serious. The complaints you made in the past with Jann Lee on the Competitive FB group or BlazBlue mechanic is no different here. Why should these cosmetic features appeal to you? there is no clash of the system, deal with it.
Do you need glasses? even if you had one, tell your eye doctor to give you a brand new pair. This is the big picture. Whatever that you will request simply will not happen, this twitchyness isn't there. You base these statements on sheer emotion and visually and yet none of it is correct... again. All simple opinions on visual and emotional feel.
*They fit, relax. Think of it as another DOA characters you are unfamiliar on how to deal with.
*They won't be changed. TN did a great job. I'll give it a 9/10. No 10? reason being is that they don't have all the costumes from the previous games they were in.
So here is the result Argentus. I held your hand and left you in the middle of the highway because why not? As the kindergarden teacher, I still kept my job because it was quite reasonable to do so. If anyone values their intelligence, take heed and stop replying to this silly thread. We don't want to plague the game now.
Do you need glasses? even if you had one, tell your eye doctor to give you a brand new pair. This is the big picture. Whatever that you will request simply will not happen, this twitchyness isn't there. You base these statements on sheer emotion and visually and yet none of it is correct... again. All simple opinions on visual and emotional feel.
*They fit, relax. Think of it as another DOA characters you are unfamiliar on how to deal with.
*They won't be changed. TN did a great job. I'll give it a 9/10. No 10? reason being is that they don't have all the costumes from the previous games they were in.
So here is the result Argentus. I held your hand and left you in the middle of the highway because why not? As the kindergarden teacher, I still kept my job because it was quite reasonable to do so. If anyone values their intelligence, take heed and stop replying to this silly thread. We don't want to plague the game now.
Lulu
Well-Known Member
I have no beef with The VF cast other than Pai Chan and Jacky Bryant....... arent those two abit redundant when you already have Lei Fang and Jan Lee ?
If theres one VF character that would awesome in DoA it would that pale faced sadist, Goh Hinogami...... but I would settle for Jean Kujo.... a pretty damn good Charge character and Eileen (to compliment Christie)
If theres one VF character that would awesome in DoA it would that pale faced sadist, Goh Hinogami...... but I would settle for Jean Kujo.... a pretty damn good Charge character and Eileen (to compliment Christie)
Pai and Jacky redundant? Not at all. If goin by style comparions , Jacky jeet kun do style is different from Jan lees and Pai is a whole different style from Lei fangs. Only most simulars are Ein and Hitomi ( but still different in various ways) and Bayman and Leon ( Who share almost an entire movesets and tags dang near minus a few) but i been told they too are a lil different from each other. Sarah is mixed martial arts but so is Mila ( more MMA style tho) and they play insanely different. I always looked at Sarah as a Savate style than an MMA character.
I always hoped to seen more VF characters like Goh come in too. Need a good judo dude. Vanessa is pretty much mila and Bayman but she still far different so i would loved her in and Eileen, Lion and even Jean ( he does karate but his version is total unlike hitomi and eins) and even Brad. Them right there bring some changes on styles, some same with total different usage and moves . I seriously don't see anything lacking on the VF side of the game. They got plenty shine and are very badass to use and fight against with people who have seriously mastered them.
Last talk on this "twitch" thing. The Vf characters arent the only ones who does this as said backdash /kBd move. I seen a vid with a guy doing it using dang near any character in the game, hell its in MK X as well as others. But once you go into the actual movesets...that twitch does nothing to the fluidity motions of the moves. All the roster are as fluid as their styles need them to be to pull off their movesets. Helena moves in a totally different manner from akira based on styles not an error. Pai is faster than lei fang due to her having faster poking same as she had in VF all the time but again...she can be beaten using lei fang or anyone. . Its a well thought out and balanced out game .
Lulu
Well-Known Member
Well yeah... but they just aren't enough..... and I think Sarah is just Martial Arts, not MMA. If I had to be honest.... I would wsnt the entire VF to join DoA.... of only just to see Alpha finaly get a tag partner befitting her ridiculousness, Dural ofcourse.
Yeah i would think its just martial arts but every style of fighting is martial arts. Lol. On her doa5 wiki its even listed as mixed martial arts too As well she is listed as a mixed martial arts collectively but previously jeet kun do on the VF5 wiki. If ya ask me, she is more focused on kicks as her selling point and has more a Savate feel and not tai kwon do as she was at one time thought to use as well. Hense why she is detered a mix martial arts since she uses a varied format and not one particular. Mila is pretty much the style you see in ufc and nlw traditional MMA style of fighting in a ring. So who knows what Sarah style would be really called other than mixed martial arts. lol.
I too feel they could have brung in more...wishful thinking as a fan of course of both franchises. Who knows whats to come in the next game if any but i would have loved if they made it a new collab with more VF dlc characters added too. That would be awesome. 2 greats together.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
That's one way to look at it.
At least you bother trying to use reason and logic instead of just going "nope wrong" with no real argument like dbomb lol.
I would a liked the monkey girl over Jacky.
The issue is all of the vfs so far are fairly redundant, in that they use the same general style as an existing DOA character
Akira-Kokoro
Jacky-jann Lee
Pai-leifang
Sarah-Rig
Yeah balance isn't really an issue (except sarah) but I wasn't talking about the back dashing with the twitching.
Like I said my issue is more that they have a different flow of animation, which just looks...off/weird next to DOA characters. Its part of why I'm iffy about a full doaxvf game.
Lulu
Well-Known Member
Have you noticed The VF cast handles there Combos in a similar way they did in Their home game ?
They don't Juggle like the rest of the cast..... they get a launcher, some short combo string and then a bounding move which as far as I can tell puts the victim being bounded in the exact same animation like they did in VF..... I haven't seen DoA character trigger this same bounding animation.... and then they end the Combo with standard ground string.
Allthough I haven't seen Akira Use the Bound move.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
I haven't played vf enough to compare it to their home game (only used Vanessa and the monkey girl) I'm just noticing they still operate differently in DOA.
Lulu
Well-Known Member
Oh wait.... I just remembered Nyotengu's Sumo Stomp from a powerblow does trigger the same Animation asJack'y's bounding move.......
I almost bought VF recently but man I was completely turned off by that annoying Stagger mechanic.... there are some moves in the game that behave like Sit Down stuns in that you half to wiggle the stick to break out of...... I don't like it. in both DoA and VF gameplay is mostly precise and deliberate, the whole "wiggle the stick like a madman" mechanic feels like it clashes with both games philosophy..... atleast DoA still has its holds and thats why I want more VF Characters in there.
I wish you could stagger escape using a mechanic from Soul Calibur called Just Guard.... if you're at Disadvantage hold the Block Button for exactly Ten Frames and you'l recover..... surely this will save alot of Analogue Sticks......
Edit: oh yeah.... I don't use the D-Pad..... it frustrates me because on the Analogue I struggle with 44 inputs.
Edit2: VF has a significantly much higher input leniency regarding 44 Command moves.... like Sarah's 44 P.... I perform it it more consistently in VF than I do in DoA.
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Argentus
Well-Known Member
I'm trained to play DOA on dpad because you couldn't use thumb stick back with 3 lol.Oh wait.... I just remembered Nyotengu's Sumo Stomp from a powerblow does trigger the same Animation asJack'y's bounding move.......
I almost bought VF recently but man I was completely turned off by that annoying Stagger mechanic.... there are some moves in the game that behave like Sit Down stuns in that you half to wiggle the stick to break out of...... I don't like it. in both DoA and VF gameplay is mostly precise and deliberate, the whole "wiggle the stick like a madman" mechanic feels like it clashes with both games philosophy..... atleast DoA still has its holds and thats why I want more VF Characters in there.
I wish you could stagger escape using a mechanic from Soul Calibur called Just Guard.... if you're at Disadvantage hold the Block Button for exactly Ten Frames and you'l recover..... surely this will save alot of Analogue Sticks......
Edit: oh yeah.... I don't use the D-Pad..... it frustrates me because on the Analogue I struggle with 44 inputs.
Edit2: VF has a significantly much higher input leniency regarding 44 Command moves.... like Sarah's 44 P.... I perform it it more consistently in VF than I do in DoA.
But yeah that's part of why I didn't get into vf. Too sluggish and winds up with too much stun for it.
I think that if they ever did a vfxdoa, they should completely adapt the vfs for DOA gameplay, not this "halfway" system.
As for stag her escape I feel like it should be "hold back and maybe guard" not "flail the thumb stick".
Lulu
Well-Known Member
Thats a tricky input..... it might clash with the mid punch hold...... its also abit too easy considering the Stagger Escape can be used on pretty much any stun that doesn't let you fall to the ground naturally... which isn't many.
This goes back to your topic about "you should never give up" except while in that thread it was about people exploiting the system to bypass the hold feature from an offensive standpoint.... in this scenario people would exploit the easier input of the Stagger Escape to bypass the whole Hold Mechanic.... which is essential for grapple characters..... it hurts the Yomi and DoA really really really really needs the Yomi, its a pretty much a Tekken/VF clone without it.
I've actually seen some people use Stagger Escaping on holdable stuns in Tournaments level play just to take out the guess work (and why wouldn't they.... they wanna win right ?)
It doesn't need to be easier.... it just needs to feel alot less panicky and random.
And while they're at it, they should do something about the side step..... it would be nice to just single tap it instead of double tapping.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
You can remap it. I have it changed Ayo I just press a shoulder button to sidestep.
But honestly I think Stagger escape is silly in the first place. I get breaking out of stun, fine, but the way its implemented means you have to spend most of the match rotating the thumb stick which is stupid. Just make it so I can break by reaction like holds. Maybe just pressing Guard by itself? Or mashing guard instead of rotating thumb stick?
Lulu
Well-Known Member
I guess I could.... I use to use it that way but this was a problem in Tag mode because my inputs are far from clean..... I get the odd tag instead of a sidestep like 1 out of 6 times..... so I just decided to try harder using the default set up..... and its kinda of working.... I get my sidestep but man its not getting easier the more times I do.... it should be getting easier right ?
Anyway.... I agree..... I don't get Stagger Escaping as a whole either.
I'm guessing its got something to do with the game's balance regarding how slow some moves Are....... that plus the sit down stun leaves you in a crouch state meaning the standard odd of getting a succesful hold go from 1in 4 to 1 in 3..... add on top of that the sit down stun requires a significant ammount reach since it knocks you back a fair enough distance..... I know some characters with some moves that just don't have enough reach to follow the sit down stun.... this can narrow the odds of getting a hold even further.... for Mila's 7 K it can be as low as 50 50 since only another 7 K is guaranteed to follow it up... her arms just barely make contact if you try to punch.
Dare I say that Unholdable Stuns like the Sit Down is a necessary evil ?
I'm alil conflicted.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
My preferred tactic after 7k is a simple 3hk to down em for a mount, but I usually just go for mixup to mess with them first. My usual pattern is
7k>2hk>3hk. They fall for it almost every time. I dunno if I'm remembering inputs right but with or without 7k it goes
Long reach poke
They attempt to counterattack
Sweep to avoid
They try to hold
Somersault>Mount.
Wait I'm remembering it wrong I think. Something like that at any rate.
Little extra damage and it breaks their rhythm for a while, keeping the match in your favor because you set the pace not them. That's why I prefer riskier stuff over guaranteed setups. Guaranteed is too predictable. Read the opponent and guide their actions.
Simpler option for following 7k is to just somersault with 3hk for a mount.
On sidestepping...I don't play tag lol. Changing input took some getting uses to but its way better imo.
But yeah stagger escape and sit down stuns just seem...I dunno if this is the right word but...gratuitous? They're pointless in DOA, but seem more to cater to people used to other fighters with more guaranteed setups. Either way, "spin the thumb stick" was a terrible way to implement it.
As for dealing with unholdable stuns like sit down, treat it like baiting the opponent then read and punish the attack that would put you in sit down stun. Most people who use it rely on it exclusively because its easy damage, so it makes them really predictable. Like when fighting Akira, don't brother going on the offense. He's all about pounding you, which is an opening thanks to the hold system. Eat damage to get a feel for the players habits and preferences, then simply Hold his preferred attacks.
Though yeah the vfs are a pain because they leave you in stun so damn long so if they get momentum you're fucked lol. But like I said there's ways to deal with em. That's how I do it.
On slow moves though...sit down stuns aren't needed for that either because since this is a 3d fighter you can easily land slow moves by just reading and using them for Crushes instead of trying to throw them out normally.