DOA5LR Tom Lee discusses Raidou, Honoka, and the Casual audience

In a recent article on Dead or Alive 5 Last Round by Siliconera, Tom Lee is interviewed and discusses some of the reasoning for Raidou's return and Honoka's selection. Be sure to read the whole article for full details, but here are some notable quotes by the Creative Director of Team NINJA:

I asked Lee why Team Ninja brought Raidou back. "Raidou was brought back because he is a fan favorite. Team Ninja definitely wants to see more villains in the line up. I personally love seeing more characters like this it brings balance to the cutesy girls [in Dead or Alive]," Lee replied.

Lee explained Team Ninja looks at stats and player feedback when creating new Dead or Alive fighters. Team Ninja’s data says in the Western market people have been playing wrestler type characters like Rig while in Japan they favor the female characters. "There are many guys on our team. I would like to see more characters like Raidou, for instance. But at the end of the day I think the numbers support the Honoka type of character," Lee said when talking about creating Honoka. "Maybe its a cultural difference, but sometimes in the East it’s dictated by aesthetics first and then the story is developed through character design. Rather than saying, the sister of so-and-so just got messed up by him, so let’s create a revenge story. Lots of times we review character designs and she seems like a 15 year old school girl, she’s coming home from school, let’s create a story about that."

"Interactive touch points have been switched up and added. Hot Zones have changed for some stages. There may be an addition to existing hot spots and it won’t be in all of the stages. Without telling you exactly where they are, we want fans who have been with us for the last two years to enjoy finding new things," Lee said.

Tom Lee also discussed the casual audience, sometimes eerily seeming like a direct response from Tomonobu Itagaki's recent comments towards the fifth entry of the series.

While it might feel broken for competitive players, one of the reasons why Danger Zone, a stage from the original Dead or Alive with explosive traps, was added was to appeal to casual players. "I think we learned is one of the things we wanted to do better is we’ve focused on giving competitive players. Making sure it’s balanced not just for players in the East, but players in the West. That was one of our biggest focuses in the last couple of years," Lee answered when I asked how Dead or Alive 5 evolved from from 2012 to now. "With Last Round, one of the things we wanted to do is not lose focus of our casual audience as well. When it comes to game balance and even the presentation of the stages we wanted to reel back and make the experience enjoyable for casual fans."

"We want to maintain that DOA has an easy point of entry for beginners. We want it to be an intuitive sort of experience instead of learning the move list for 30 different characters or whatnot. They can come in the beginning and button mash their way through, not only having success but looking good while you’re doing it. We want people to have a great time whether they understand a character or not. In mastering it, they will learn in trial and error," Lee elaborated.

Be sure to read the full article from Siliconera for further details.

 

Basically, all this article and the comments to the articles are telling me that it's hard to please everyone. Obviously, different player cultures have different tastes, but it's not always absolute. Fact of the matter is, Team Ninja brought DOA5 to next gen because the fans asked for it and we got our wish. Team Ninja was also gracious enough to not leave out last gen players and even made the current gen versions worth the purchase, because they are the premium versions that will most likely get new DLC while last gen versions get left in the dust. Team Ninja has done a lot to support the game over the years and while we, the players, may bitch about costumes and the like, let's just be grateful with what we have and that the company is supporting the game we love in a huge way. And it's clear from the article that support for DOA5 isn't going to stop anytime soon. What I hate is people who keep bashing costumes and sex appeal, thinking that DOA5 hasn't turned into a competitive fighter. The gameplay system in DOA5/5U/5LR has made the game more competitive than ever before and at various tournaments, DOA has had higher entrants than other 3D fighters. All we can do, as a community, is continue to give Team Ninja CONSTRUCTIVE feedback and support our game by attending tournaments.

If the only way to give constructive feedback and support is to go to tournaments, how are customers to complain about what they don't like? How are we to grow, when we can't say why we aren't interested anymore?

just because a character is underage doesn't make them pedo bait. the youngest characters prior to MR was Ayane when she was 14 in NG which took place two years prior o DOA1, she was actually designed as a 16 year old in DOA which is considered an adult in a lot of places. 12 is the age of consent pretty much nowhere and that's how MR was designed both appearance and personality wise.

You sure? I think she kinda fits that better if you really think about it. And no, i agree that being underage isn't pedobait, at least not when you're playing something other than DoA. We have to stop lying to ourselves that this game isn't selling sex. If it's there, it's bait. TN isn't even denying it. They're just denying her age. But the civil war soldier standing over the number 18 is still 14 trying to fight along side his brother.

 

The first and only new female announced was Mila, dressed like a tomboy, decently proportioned (as are the added Pai and Sarah from VF) unique relatable look and a fighter with her own personality. She represented everything DOA5 was supposed to become. Here we are with Last Round and all the new females are progressively worse and worse, but Honaka is especially offensive given the original direction of the series. No thought or personality, the whole idea of the character isn't even thematically coherent. She's advertised as being a clone with the biggest pair of tits(soft engine redeemed said no one). Using another characters model and with nothing unique to add to the series. She represents everything DOA5 was butchered into. A soulless pair of oversized tits.

This so much. Oh my GOD, this.

 

If the only way to give constructive feedback and support is to go to tournaments, how are customers to complain about what they don't like? How are we to grow, when we can't say why we aren't interested anymore?

I never said going to tournaments is the only way to give constructive feedback. There's a way to give feedback without coming off as sounding like you're just bitching, which is what a lot of the community does. DOA is unique in that we're a community that mostly argues about the aesthetics instead of asking for things that matter to a fighting game more, like balancing and better netcode. We focus on the wrong things.

 

I never said going to tournaments is the only way to give constructive feedback. There's a way to give feedback without coming off as sounding like you're just bitching, which is what a lot of the community does. DOA is unique in that we're a community that mostly argues about the aesthetics instead of asking for things that matter to a fighting game more, like balancing and better netcode. We focus on the wrong things.

Tell that to every woman who's single "and thirsty." Everyone knows that appearances get you in. What's inside will never be noticed without appearances. I'm a self-taught programmer, i've made a small OS kernel and various tutorials in x86 assembly. I just got beat out for a job position buy a guy who has a piece of paper that says he learned out to use a router. Appearances are everything.

 

Ayane (PHASE-GENRA)? I mean she got the saber.

Another clone character!? ... You know what? it's all good. I'm totally zen after Phase 4 appeared. If they make another clone character I'll be like "Aight."

 

I never said going to tournaments is the only way to give constructive feedback. There's a way to give feedback without coming off as sounding like you're just bitching, which is what a lot of the community does. DOA is unique in that we're a community that mostly argues about the aesthetics instead of asking for things that matter to a fighting game more, like balancing and better netcode. We focus on the wrong things.

No we focus on BOTH things, and get shit for caring about the aesthetic at all. Its just that unlike most fighters, with DOA the aesthetic is a bigger part of things.

 

I sometimes think we care TOO much about aesthetics instead of the fighting aspect, but that's just me.

 

I never said going to tournaments is the only way to give constructive feedback. There's a way to give feedback without coming off as sounding like you're just bitching, which is what a lot of the community does. DOA is unique in that we're a community that mostly argues about the aesthetics instead of asking for things that matter to a fighting game more, like balancing and better netcode. We focus on the wrong things.

we've voiced our opinions very clearly about the specific things we dont like about the characters like Maries fake age or Honoka's moveset this isnt blind hate, but they dont listen all they do is say "you dont like it cause its a Japanese thing"

 

I sometimes think we care TOO much about aesthetics instead of the fighting aspect, but that's just me.

Yes, it is.


Like it or not, aesthetics are actually very important. Its the "video" part of "Video Game". Even moreso for DOA, which has always been a very aesthetic-centric series.

As for why people always talk about it over balance, well thats simple. There's more to say.

 

we've voiced our opinions very clearly about the specific things we dont like about the characters like Maries fake age or Honoka's moveset this isnt blind hate, but they dont listen all they do is say "you dont like it cause its a Japanese thing"

Marie and Honoka are 18. Deal with it. The developers have stated it time and time again that they are 18. Honoko isn't the first mimic character in a fighting game or in the series and she certainly isn't the first school girl archetype in a fighting game. It's going to be hard to appeal to EVERYONE in a fighting game, which developers do understand. Raidou appeals to those who do like bad ass, villainous characters that hit hard and Honoka appeals to those who like the cutesy, good hearted school girls with a passion for fighting. Not every character is going to appeal to you, but the simplest solution is to just not play with said character. If the whole Lucky Chloe debacle has taught us anything, it's just that negative feedback to a character will cause the community to actually want to use said character even more. Honoka is here and she's here to stay, whether she appeals to you are not. In a game of 34 characters, you can continue to stick with characters that do appeal to you.

 

Marie and Honoka are 18. Deal with it. The developers have stated it time and time again that they are 18. Honoko isn't the first mimic character in a fighting game or in the series and she certainly isn't the first school girl archetype in a fighting game. It's going to be hard to appeal to EVERYONE in a fighting game, which developers do understand. Raidou appeals to those who do like bad ass, villainous characters that hit hard and Honoka appeals to those who like the cutesy, good hearted school girls with a passion for fighting. Not every character is going to appeal to you, but the simplest solution is to just not play with said character. If the whole Lucky Chloe debacle has taught us anything, it's just that negative feedback to a character will cause the community to actually want to use said character even more. Honoka is here and she's here to stay, whether she appeals to you are not. In a game of 34 characters, you can continue to stick with characters that do appeal to you.

Except its more than that.

The issue is that Honoka embodies everything wrong with DOA's direction not just a matter of personal preference.

 

Moe is the cancer for DoA. Got it.

 

The issue is that Honoka embodies everything wrong with DOA's direction not just a matter of personal preference.

DOA's direction has never been lost. DOA5 was made with "Fighting Entertainment" in mind. Part of that entertainment comes from flashy moves, stage hazards, cliffhangers, fantastical costumes, etc. Raidou has a freaking projectile for goodness sakes and Honoka is a school girl with a secret power that allows her to copy moves from other fighters. DOA's direction has always been about flash and simple, but rewarding and deep fighting game mechanics. Despite the costumes, which do NOTHING to affect the gameplay, I'm still a Fighter and I love the Fighting Entertainment theme Team Ninja was going for, because I've put over 500 hours into this game because it entertains me.

 

Just give us Aerial Gardens for a new stage and I'll be a happy man.

 

I don't mind the sexualization at all. After all it is just a game. It's just... there's SO MUCH DLC FOR THE FEMALE CHARACTERS. Jesus. But it is good that DLC is optional

 

I don't mind the sexualization at all. After all it is just a game. It's just... there's SO MUCH DLC FOR THE FEMALE CHARACTERS. Jesus. But it is good that DLC is optional

It's safe to assume that males will be included in future DLC packs, if the Cop and Christmas 2014 DLC packs are a sign. But it's always been like that. Even in earlier DOA games were there barely were a lot of costumes, males always had less than the females.

 

It's safe to assume that males will be included in future DLC packs, if the Cop and Christmas 2014 DLC packs are a sign. But it's always been like that. Even in earlier DOA games were there barely were a lot of costumes, males always had less than the females.

That is a very good point. Bayman only had three costumes, didn't he? And Kasumi and Kokoro had like eight

 

Marie and Honoka are 18. Deal with it. The developers have stated it time and time again that they are 18. Honoko isn't the first mimic character in a fighting game or in the series and she certainly isn't the first school girl archetype in a fighting game. It's going to be hard to appeal to EVERYONE in a fighting game, which developers do understand. Raidou appeals to those who do like bad ass, villainous characters that hit hard and Honoka appeals to those who like the cutesy, good hearted school girls with a passion for fighting. Not every character is going to appeal to you, but the simplest solution is to just not play with said character. If the whole Lucky Chloe debacle has taught us anything, it's just that negative feedback to a character will cause the community to actually want to use said character even more. Honoka is here and she's here to stay, whether she appeals to you are not. In a game of 34 characters, you can continue to stick with characters that do appeal to you.

fuck this you're blocked. you tell others to give constructive criticism then flat out tell me mine is wrong fucking nerve of it all.

fact: MR would have done much better without the age controversy that could have been avoided
fact: Honoka would have been liked more if she brought something new

 

Except its more than that.

The issue is that Honoka embodies everything wrong with DOA's direction not just a matter of personal preference.

And so the fuck what? The Mishimas hogging the spotlight and Bounds in is everything that's wrong in Tekken. Street Fighter continously milking expansion after expansion is what's wrong with it. etc, etc, etc,.

DOA is absolutely no different in any other category, but you raising these freaking declarations(not even accusations, just declarations) is honestly pissing me off in a very big way.

Cut that shit out now. It IS a personal preference.

 

we've voiced our opinions very clearly about the specific things we dont like about the characters like Maries fake age or Honoka's moveset this isnt blind hate, but they dont listen all they do is say "you dont like it cause its a Japanese thing"

I know plenty of Japs that aren't happy with AKB48, and they're over 18.

Marie and Honoka are 18. Deal with it. The developers have stated it time and time again that they are 18. Honoko isn't the first mimic character in a fighting game or in the series and she certainly isn't the first school girl archetype in a fighting game. It's going to be hard to appeal to EVERYONE in a fighting game, which developers do understand. Raidou appeals to those who do like bad ass, villainous characters that hit hard and Honoka appeals to those who like the cutesy, good hearted school girls with a passion for fighting. Not every character is going to appeal to you, but the simplest solution is to just not play with said character. If the whole Lucky Chloe debacle has taught us anything, it's just that negative feedback to a character will cause the community to actually want to use said character even more. Honoka is here and she's here to stay, whether she appeals to you are not. In a game of 34 characters, you can continue to stick with characters that do appeal to you.

Except that with shit like this, we see exactly what we are trying to deny to people we know. I can't tell people that i like DoA for it's mechanics. I am a liar in the mind of everyone who doesn't play DoA, despite being notorious for bible thumping. Now i'm a pedo on top of it. Denying what something is doesn't change what it is. If shit like honoka is here to stay, then I ain't. It's not that i can just not play that character. That character is a new and hyped part of the game, and to support it makes me a pervert, and a pedophile on top of it. It doesn't matter how much you, me, and everyone else here denies it. If we have any value of anyone's opinion outside of this community (which we should have if we want more people playing the game so that it gets any respect), we need to accept them as they are. This is the problem with all niche groups and games: they are niche because they keep ignoring people outside the niche, so people outside the niche treat them as outsiders as a result. If i go to a tournament, i'm the outsider DoA player, because i'm part of a niche, a niche that also tells them that their opinions don't matter simply because i do not like them. We have to stop lying to ourselves, or we'll never grow.